PTH wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:03 am
At the same time, is it fair to say that folk have found rules that seem to be able to predict the effects of gravity with reasonable accuracy? Even if we say "sure, Ptolemaic astronomy was the same; it could produce good estimates and its plain wrong in its explanations", I'd still have a wonder if we're dealing with a different sort of thing when we're accounting physical movements. So Ptolemy might have been wrong in his model. But, at some level, we know that we've looking a physical things moving in predictable ways. We're not trying to ascribe any intentions or motivations to the planets.
I think the key point here is that what physics does is constructing Mathematical models of reality, and to this end we cannot ignore the implications of
model-dependent realism on society and language.
In Ptolemy's days we SAID that Sun rotates around the Earth. Now we SAY the Earth rotates around the sun. But it's not even that, because both the Sun and Earth are rotating around Sagitarius A. And Sagitarius A is rotating around... I don't even know what.
And all while we have been adjusting our language, reality hasn't really changed. So it's important to recognize that the
constructivists may actually be right.
When you look at the big picture what is rotating around what, largely depends on one's choice of reference frame. And for each reference frame, a valid predictive model can be constructed which accurately describes the motion of all other objects. Which also means the
perspectivists were correct too.
The thing about models is that they are all wrong. Some of them are useful for a particular purpose.
PTH wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:03 am
I thinks its more in the nature of a allegory if we say the emergence of consciousness cannot be explained, in the same way that gravity cannot be explained. If Newton had included some brain-related formula, that seemed to work for any mind-related activity that we might encounter on Earth, I'd feel that bit happier.
So lets say then that the way in which they are different is that we can construct a Mathematical model to predict how gravity behaves, but we cannot construct a Mathematical model to predict how consciousness behaves. Or can we?
If a computer running some software (which is just Mathematics/Logic in the background) was able to perform tasks equivalent to any human.
If a computer was able to pass the Turing test. Would you consider that as a "valid explanation of consciousness"?
And I make a point that the narrative which we call an "explanation" changes based on the scientific models which we call "real" (as per model-dependent realism).
So maybe we will have a robot by Google and Apple which both pass the Turing test. They run different software (e.g different models) but ultimately they do the same thing. So it would be silly to divide ourselves into Google-believers and Apple-believers.
They are just two competing models that describe the same phenomenon.
PTH wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:03 am
I know that may seem like fidgeting with the issue; maybe we should be appreciating that there's no more or less to our failure to explain gravity, than there is to our failure to explain the mind.
The problem lies with the limits of abstractions and epistemology itself. If the human is unable to tell the difference between two things then (epistemically) there is no difference.
If two models make exactly the same prediction from drastically different assumptions - how do you decide which one is "true" except aesthetically?
PTH wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:03 am
Maybe we should be appreciating that all explanation is pointless. I'd simply return to that idea of the airplane - maybe all of the techniques we'd use to design a good aircraft are based on faulty explanations. But those explanations do seem to be exhaustive.
There's no mystery around why a plane with particular dimensions will take-off if it achieves a certain speed. I don't yet see a similarly convincing explanation the mind. Maybe gravity is just as mysterious, but I'm not finding that convincing, yet.
Indeed. Fundamentally - this is the instrumentalist view. Science is not and never was after "truth". Science constructs predictive models. if they fit the data and future predictions - they are fit for purpose. If they make inaccurate predictions - they are not fit for purpose.
And yet - we cannot ignore the social/collective desire for answers.Where do we come from? What is this place? Where are we going?
So science is forced to make up stories, even though any scientists worth their salt would probably say "we are going too far by saying this".
Truth is the greatest brand name in human history, and science currently holds the rights.