Rationalism v. empiricism

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Speakpigeon
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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by Speakpigeon » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:45 pm

commonsense wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:19 pm
Can we say that introspection is a form of observation?
I think it clearly is. It is obviously a different modality but that is definitely how humanity has always thought of it. Personally, I think it's a good idea to pay attention to your own state of mind, without making too much of it.
And of course, memory and sensations are information on the state of your body. Remembering is in effect observing the memories somehow contained in your brain or in your mind. So, yes, introspection is trivially observation.
EB

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by commonsense » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:00 pm

Speakpigeon wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:45 pm
commonsense wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:19 pm
Can we say that introspection is a form of observation?
I think it clearly is. It is obviously a different modality but that is definitely how humanity has always thought of it. Personally, I think it's a good idea to pay attention to your own state of mind, without making too much of it.
And of course, memory and sensations are information on the state of your body. Remembering is in effect observing the memories somehow contained in your brain or in your mind. So, yes, introspection is trivially observation.
EB
But can an internal observation be objective?

I think not. There can be no consensus about an observation that is limited to one observer, and an internal observation at that.

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by commonsense » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:33 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:30 pm
commonsense wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:19 pm
Can we say that introspection is a form of observation?
No.
I take your point, but I would like to know what led you to say so.

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by Sculptor » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:47 pm

commonsense wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:33 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:30 pm
commonsense wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:19 pm
Can we say that introspection is a form of observation?
No.
I take your point, but I would like to know what led you to say so.
Observation is about the operation of the senses; primarily sight upon the external world. "introspection", no, "extraspection", yes.
Some of our senses give us information about our inner world, such as our sense of hunger, or how we feel in relation to the world, such as sense of balance. Proprioception can tell us where our arms and legs are in relation to ourselves.
Introspection, poorly named, involves no sight, in the normal sense of the word, but is the internal working of the brain "looking" into other areas of the brain. What we call our mind, is complex no doubt, but I think it is an abuse of language to call it observation.
It might be relevant to reflect that the brain itself has no sensory receptors.

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:49 am

Sculptor wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:47 pm
Observation is about the operation of the senses; primarily sight upon the external world. "introspection", no, "extraspection", yes.
(...)
What we call our mind, is complex no doubt, but I think it is an abuse of language to call it observation.
It's not an abuse of language. It's just your misconception

Straight from the dictionary:
observe verb. notice or perceive and register it as being significant.
perceive vern become aware or conscious of (something); come to realize or understand.
If I become aware of my thought process (e.g introspection), then by definition I am perceiving my thinking.
Again by definition: If I am perceiving my thinking then I am observing it.

In the broadest possible sense - anything you become aware of that allows you to answer a yes/no question is an "observation".

Am I hungry? Yes. 1 bit of information. 1 observation.

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by Sculptor » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:19 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:49 am
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:47 pm
Observation is about the operation of the senses; primarily sight upon the external world. "introspection", no, "extraspection", yes.
(...)
What we call our mind, is complex no doubt, but I think it is an abuse of language to call it observation.
It's not an abuse of language. It's just your misconception

Straight from the dictionary:
observe verb. notice or perceive and register it as being significant.
perceive vern become aware or conscious of (something); come to realize or understand.
If I become aware of my thought process (e.g introspection), then by definition I am perceiving my thinking.
Again by definition: If I am perceiving my thinking then I am observing it.

In the broadest possible sense - anything you become aware of that allows you to answer a yes/no question is an "observation".

Am I hungry? Yes. 1 bit of information. 1 observation.
Your definition contradicts you.

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by Sculptor » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:32 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:49 am
Am I hungry? Yes. 1 bit of information. 1 observation.
No. People never observe hunger, They "feel" it.
You have abused language.

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:36 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:32 pm
No. People never observe hunger, They "feel" it.
You have abused language.
I am observing that I am hungry right now.

Am I abusing language right, or would you like to go get fucked like all other linguistic prescriptivists? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:37 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:19 pm
Your definition contradicts you.
The notion of "contradiction" is incoherent philosophical nonsense.

Contradictions don't exist in reality. I am real, so how can I contradict myself?

What you think is a contradictions is just an artefact of your misinterpretation.

Here is a logical system in which the "law" of non-contradiction (P and not-P) is true.

https://repl.it/repls/GlossyResponsibleParticles
Last edited by Skepdick on Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by Speakpigeon » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:45 pm

commonsense wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:00 pm
Speakpigeon wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:45 pm
commonsense wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:19 pm
Can we say that introspection is a form of observation?
I think it clearly is. It is obviously a different modality but that is definitely how humanity has always thought of it. Personally, I think it's a good idea to pay attention to your own state of mind, without making too much of it.
And of course, memory and sensations are information on the state of your body. Remembering is in effect observing the memories somehow contained in your brain or in your mind. So, yes, introspection is trivially observation.
EB
But can an internal observation be objective?

I think not. There can be no consensus about an observation that is limited to one observer, and an internal observation at that.
Sure, but that's still an observation of reality.

And again, objectivity doesn't guaranty truth. Historically, it is always individuals who prove the objective dogma of the day to be false: Copernicus, Galileo, Einstein, Speakpigeon.
EB

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by Sculptor » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:05 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:36 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:32 pm
No. People never observe hunger, They "feel" it.
You have abused language.
I am observing that I am hungry right now.
No. You feel hungry.
No one uses "observe" in that way.
Find one example in literature were the word is (ab)used in that way!

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by Sculptor » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:07 pm

Speakpigeon wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:45 pm
commonsense wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:00 pm
Speakpigeon wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:45 pm

I think it clearly is. It is obviously a different modality but that is definitely how humanity has always thought of it. Personally, I think it's a good idea to pay attention to your own state of mind, without making too much of it.
And of course, memory and sensations are information on the state of your body. Remembering is in effect observing the memories somehow contained in your brain or in your mind. So, yes, introspection is trivially observation.
EB
But can an internal observation be objective?

I think not. There can be no consensus about an observation that is limited to one observer, and an internal observation at that.
Sure, but that's still an observation of reality.

And again, objectivity doesn't guaranty truth. Historically, it is always individuals who prove the objective dogma of the day to be false: Copernicus, Galileo, Einstein, Speakpigeon.
EB
All objectivity relies on consensus. So since internal feelings and thoughts cannot be OBSERVED then no consensus is possible.

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:12 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:05 pm
No. You feel hungry.
You seem to have confused yourself with somebody who can tell me how to use my language when I speak about myself.

If you are able to correct my meaning, then it means you perfectly understood my meaning. Your lame attempt at linguistic prescriptivism is only a sign of your deluded self-importance.

Please remove your noggin from your rectum.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:05 pm
No one uses "observe" in that way.
Do your eyes deceive you? Do you not believe what you are observing?

I am using "observe" in that way. That's your black swan.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:05 pm
Find one example in literature were the word is (ab)used in that way!
If you look two posts back - you will find that which you seek.
Last edited by Skepdick on Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by Sculptor » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:17 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:12 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:05 pm
No. You feel hungry.
You seem to have confused yourself with somebody who can tell me how to use my language when I speak about myself.
You are free to abuse language as you see if. But then you are also free to make an arse of yourself too


If you are able to correct my meaning, then it means you perfectly understood my meaning.
In the most polite manner possible. Please remove your noggin from your rectum.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:05 pm
No one uses "observe" in that way.
Do your eyes deceive you? Do you not believe what you are observing?

I am using "observe" in that way. That's your black swan.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:05 pm
Find one example in literature were the word is (ab)used in that way!
If you look two posts back - you will find that which you seek.
You might be able to type a few words, but you are no "literature".

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Re: Rationalism v. empiricism

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:20 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:17 pm
You might be able to type a few words, but you are no "literature".
Your biases for some writings over others are none of our concern.

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