There is no emergence

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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bahman
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There is no emergence

Post by bahman » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:15 pm

In here we show that emergence does not exist. To start let's consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in term of properties of parts if it is emergent property (by reducible I mean that there is a function which related the property of the system to the properties of the parts). There must however be a reason that system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function which describes the property of the system (this is true since reason means that something implements something else). The only available variables are however the properties of parts. This means that the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence.

Logik
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Logik » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:36 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:15 pm
In here we show that emergence does not exist. To start let's consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in term of properties of parts if it is emergent property (by reducible I mean that there is a function which related the property of the system to the properties of the parts). There must however be a reason that system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function which describes the property of the system (this is true since reason means that something implements something else). The only available variables are however the properties of parts. This means that the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence.
Again?

Your premise is broken. You are coming from a Cartesian dualism framework and assuming mind-independence and so you are using the verb “exists” to mean some mind-independent phenomenon.

But if you give up the Cartesian theatre the very word “exists” changes in meaning.

Mind-independent phenomenon is an oxymoron.

Emergence exists. It is a mental phenomenon.

Or the simple way to detail your argument is to ask “Do phenomena exist ?”

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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:28 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:36 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:15 pm
In here we show that emergence does not exist. To start let's consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in term of properties of parts if it is emergent property (by reducible I mean that there is a function which related the property of the system to the properties of the parts). There must however be a reason that system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function which describes the property of the system (this is true since reason means that something implements something else). The only available variables are however the properties of parts. This means that the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence.
Again?
This is a brand new argument.
Logik wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:36 pm
Your premise is broken. You are coming from a Cartesian dualism framework and assuming mind-independence and so you are using the verb “exists” to mean some mind-independent phenomenon.
I am not a dualist. Here I am not defending my world view but arguing against a well accepted concept in materialism.
Logik wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:36 pm
But if you give up the Cartesian theatre the very word “exists” changes in meaning.

Mind-independent phenomenon is an oxymoron.
I agree.
Logik wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:36 pm
Emergence exists. It is a mental phenomenon.
Emergence exist if you believe in magic/miracle. I believe that everything has an explanation
Logik wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:36 pm
Or the simple way to detail your argument is to ask “Do phenomena exist ?”
Everything is explicable in my opinion.

Logik
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Logik » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:06 pm

bahman wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:28 pm
Everything is explicable in my opinion.
Emergence doesn't imply that it's inexplicable. A hurricane is an emergent phenomenon.

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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:01 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:06 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:28 pm
Everything is explicable in my opinion.
Emergence doesn't imply that it's inexplicable. A hurricane is an emergent phenomenon.
In philosophy, theories that emphasize emergent properties have been called emergentism. Almost all accounts of emergentism include a form of epistemic or ontological irreducibility to the lower levels. From wiki.

In here I showed property of a system is reducible to properties of parts.

Logik
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Logik » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:56 pm

bahman wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:01 pm
In philosophy, theories that emphasize emergent properties have been called emergentism. Almost all accounts of emergentism include a form of epistemic or ontological irreducibility to the lower levels. From wiki.

In here I showed property of a system is reducible to properties of parts.
In Physics emergence is everywhere.

Metastability is an emergent phenomenon which is consistent with the anthropic principle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metastability
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

Human existence is a metastable state. For now.

Hrvoje
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Hrvoje » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:39 pm

So, emergent property of a system is the one that is not a function of properties of its parts, ie it is not reducible to that.
I like that definition more than a lot of talking here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence , or here https://arxiv.org/ftp/nlin/papers/0506/0506028.pdf, to mention just a few sources, that however fail to be concise in definition.
Let's examine one example. Is a distance between two points an emergent property of a system of these two points? It depends on what properties do these points possess. One would expect that their position is the most fundamental property that they should possess, and if they do, then the distance between them should be a function of their positions. However, the problem arises in that, that position is not really intrinsic property of a point, it is actually defined by distances to some other referential points, in a completely empty space with nothing else but the observed two points, ie not equipped with coordinate system of any kind, and no other points that could serve as referential, they would really have no position by them selves. So, this is a kind of a strange loop, in order to have such property, other points are necessary, so one can argue already a position is an emergent property because points don't have it in isolation, but once they have it, distance is no more emergent, because it is reducible to position of points.

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