Does future exist?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Logik
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:02 am

Conceptually and empirically - yes it does.

What is the empirical distinction? Control.

I can't change ANYTHING that happened "yesterday".
I can change SOME things that will happen "tomorrow".



The more I understand my environment - the more I can influence things that will happen "tomorrow".

You could call this concept "power" or "competence" or "ability" or "knowledge". Whatever...

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bahman
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by bahman » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:47 pm

Cerveny wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:40 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:13 pm
Cerveny wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:04 am
Rather than the Future the History exists. So you can rather consider influence of “(X(t) - X(t-dt))/dt” at the development of the Universe... I personally can see the Future as (Platonic) world/empire of ideas:) If you are interested, you can read more...
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9654#p124332
We have a problem at the beginning of time if we use X(t-dt) to X(t) as a causal chain, t being the big bang time.
No problem, you should consider analogy to certain primordial phase transition...
I mean there was nothing before big bang.

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bahman
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by bahman » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:52 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:02 am
Conceptually and empirically - yes it does.

What is the empirical distinction? Control.

I can't change ANYTHING that happened "yesterday".
I can change SOME things that will happen "tomorrow".



The more I understand my environment - the more I can influence things that will happen "tomorrow".

You could call this concept "power" or "competence" or "ability" or "knowledge". Whatever...
Control is related to fact that we are aware of available options.

Logik
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:55 pm

bahman wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:52 pm
Control is related to fact that we are aware of available options.
No. It's empirical. Awareness is necessary but insufficient.

Given a sufficient sample size your control group and your test group (those exercising the option) produces different outcomes.

This is how clinical trials collect data for the efficiency of a medication.

surreptitious57
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:45 am

Logic wrote:
I can change SOME things that will happen tomorrow
You cannot change something before it actually happens because there is nothing to change
You can change your mind about what you may want to do but that is still before it happens

What thing are you going to change about tomorrow now that you know will happen with absolute certainty
Because to answer this question correctly would literally mean that you could accurately predict the future

Logik
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:56 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:45 am
Logic wrote:
I can change SOME things that will happen tomorrow
You cannot change something before it actually happens because there is nothing to change
You can change your mind about what you may want to do but that is still before it happens

What thing are you going to change about tomorrow now that you know will happen with absolute certainty
Because to answer this question correctly would literally mean that you could accurately predict the future
Speaking of absolute certainties is a red herring.

Everybody can predict the future.

The uncertainty is how far ahead and with what fidelity/precision.

I can predict that tomorrow morning I will be thirsty. And I can predict that drinking water will quench my thirst. So I have a glass of water next to my bed.

I can predict that I have 8 hours in my calendar and 13 thigs that need to get done tomorrow. So there is a good chance 5 things will probably be postponed to Thursday.

So I have managed the expectations of those whom I will be letting down accordingly.

What have I changed? I have spared 5 people the disappointment of having their expectations let down by letting them know 32 hours ahead of time.

I had the choice of not-telling them.

commonsense
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by commonsense » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:06 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:56 am
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:45 am
I can change SOME things that will happen tomorrow
You cannot change something before it actually happens because there is nothing to change
You can change your mind about what you may want to do but that is still before it happens
What thing are you going to change about tomorrow now that you know will happen with absolute certainty
Because to answer this question correctly would literally mean that you could accurately predict the future
I am not going to say that one cannot change anything that may occur in the future.

If you are planning, as a matter of near certainty, that you will drown yourself by jumping from a bridge over deep waters tomorrow, and if you make that jump today, you could change the future. If you have control over a thing that may someday occur, you could cause it to happen now.

Disclainer: chance may have it that the bridge is closed.
Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:56 am
I can predict that tomorrow morning I will be thirsty. And I can predict that drinking water will quench my thirst. So I have a glass of water next to my bed.
Allowing that your predictions come to be, you will still be thirsty until you drink that water.
Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:56 am
I can predict that I have 8 hours in my calendar and 13 thigs that need to get done tomorrow. So there is a good chance 5 things will probably be postponed to Thursday.
So I have managed the expectations of those whom I will be letting down accordingly.
What have I changed? I have spared 5 people the disappointment of having their expectations let down by letting them know 32 hours ahead of time.
I had the choice of not-telling them.
Actually, you have only changed today’s anticipations of tomorrow’s events. Today, you predict that 5 things won’t get done tomorrow. 5 things still don’t get done tomorrow. And while it is common courtesy to give the 5 people advance notice, they will be disappointed whenever they learn of the postponements, although in one case they may also be disappointed in you and in the other they may still think you’re a fine fellow.

:mrgreen:
Last edited by commonsense on Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Logik
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:12 pm

commonsense wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:06 pm
Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:56 am
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:45 am
I can change SOME things that will happen tomorrow
You cannot change something before it actually happens because there is nothing to change
You can change your mind about what you may want to do but that is still before it happens
What thing are you going to change about tomorrow now that you know will happen with absolute certainty
Because to answer this question correctly would literally mean that you could accurately predict the future
I am not going to say that one cannot change anything that may occur in the future.

If you are planning, as a matter of near certainty, that you will drown yourself tomorrow, you could jump from a bridge over deep waters today, thereby changing the future. If you have control over a thing that may someday occur, you could cause it to happen in the present.

Disclainer: chance may have it that you change your mind.

However, it must be recognized that you are changing something that is only very likely to occur, but may not occur at all. So, you don’t really have control. Chance may favor your controlling the future, but chance may also screw you.
Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:56 am
I can predict that tomorrow morning I will be thirsty. And I can predict that drinking water will quench my thirst. So I have a glass of water next to my bed.
Allowing that your predictions—are highly likely to—come to be, you will still be thirsty until you drink that water.
Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:56 am
I can predict that I have 8 hours in my calendar and 13 thigs that need to get done tomorrow. So there is a good chance 5 things will probably be postponed to Thursday.
So I have managed the expectations of those whom I will be letting down accordingly.
What have I changed? I have spared 5 people the disappointment of having their expectations let down by letting them know 32 hours ahead of time.
I had the choice of not-telling them.
Actually, you have only changed today’s anticipations of tomorrow’s events. Today, you predict that 5 things won’t get done tomorrow. 5 things still don’t get done tomorrow. And while it is common courtesy to give the 5 people advance notice, they will be disappointed whenever they learn of the postponements, although in one case they may also be disappointed in you and in the other they may still think you’re a fine fellow.
You are arguing all of this from the 1st person empirical perspective.

Even if you had a perfect scientific methodology that is is insufficient sample size to draw any conclusions.

Statistics amplifies weak signals.

Experiments have been done with cohorts of 100k/200k people showing clear patterns of different outcomes between the control and the subject groups.

Your own behaviour is insufficient to move the statistical significance needle.

Yes, it can be a coincidence. With a 1 in 100k^2 probability.

commonsense
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by commonsense » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:31 pm

Touche.

philosopher
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by philosopher » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:47 pm

Just wanted to add this documentary with physicist Brian Greene talking about the Block Universe as a consequence of Einsteins's Special Theory of Relativity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1WfFkp4puw

In short: Yes, the future exists. The dinosaurs are also back in time, doing dinosaur stuff, while the Earth is being swallowed by the Sun about some billion years from now.

Past, present and future exists. They are equally real.

Melchior
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Melchior » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:30 am

Not yet

Logik
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Logik » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:57 am

A fun way to tackling the question is thus: suppose that it didn't.

Then what?

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Cerveny
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Cerveny » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:57 pm

philosopher wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:47 pm
Just wanted to add this documentary with physicist Brian Greene talking about the Block Universe as a consequence of Einsteins's Special Theory of Relativity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1WfFkp4puw

In short: Yes, the future exists. The dinosaurs are also back in time, doing dinosaur stuff, while the Earth is being swallowed by the Sun about some billion years from now.

Past, present and future exists. They are equally real.
We are able (in simply cases) to guess how the presence will look like after a while, but it is not (in any case) the lok into the Future:(
Last edited by Cerveny on Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Logik
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Logik » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:37 pm

philosopher wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:47 pm
Past, present and future exists. They are equally real.
The past can't kill me. The future can.

Walker
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Walker » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:35 pm

- The future exists as infinite potentiality, however infinite potentiality exists outside of time.
- A thing is a particular manifestation of timeless infinite potentiality.
- A particular manifestation, which is a thing, depends upon conditions.
- Any thing imaginable or unimaginable can manifest under conditions conducive for that particular manifestation, although the combination of elements that comprise the conditions necessary for manifestation may be unknown.
- Dominant conditions are recursive, which is why seasons change although the placement of each leaf may not be identical to the past.

- Déjà vu: The past can exist in the present and the future as a particular manifestation in the sense that dominant conditions from the past can be replicated to produce a predictable effect now and in the future, which is the advantage of applied science. Clones of machines and biologicals makes for a predictable output based on predictable elements.

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