Does future exist?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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surreptitious57
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:08 pm

bahman wrote:
How could we have temporal experience if future and past and present exist ?
A future experience has yet to happen
In the present it does actually happen
And the past is it after it has happened

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bahman
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:11 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:08 pm
bahman wrote:
How could we have temporal experience if future and past and present exist ?
A future experience has yet to happen
In the present it does actually happen
And the past is it after it has happened
And how you only experience present if past and future exist too?

surreptitious57
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:19 pm

bahman wrote:
And how you only experience present if past and future exist too ?
All points in time will variously be past and present and future so all get experienced
Alternatively you can simply think of time as being the eternal NOW and nothing else
So how you map time and how you actually experience it are not necessarily the same

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bahman
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:21 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:19 pm
bahman wrote:
And how you only experience present if past and future exist too ?
All points in time will variously be past and present and future so all get experienced
We don't experience past and and future so they shouldn't exist.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:19 pm
Alternatively you can simply think of time as being the eternal NOW and nothing else
This is problematic since it cannot accommodate causality.

surreptitious57
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:27 pm


Do we pass through time or does time pass through us or does it actually matter ?

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bahman
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:33 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:27 pm

Do we pass through time or does time pass through us or does it actually matter ?
I think time is objectively real so it passes. We however experience time which I don't know how.

surreptitious57
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:36 pm


So time is both an objective phenomenon and a subjective experience

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bahman
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:40 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:36 pm

So time is both an objective phenomenon and a subjective experience
I think so.

Skip
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Skip » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:21 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:42 pm

You basically deny physics.
Deny physics what? Physics has no physical existence. It's a human intellectual construct to explain the structure, function and relationships of things that actually do exist. Physicists make sound observations, theories and predictions; they also think up formulas to describe those functions and relationships through symbolic representation.
By future exists I mean that it objectively exist and can accommodate a state of affair.
Yes, and you're still wrong. You may be able to predict what will happen, and your prediction according to a well-conceived formula may be accurate, but you cannot turn an event into a physical thing.
What's so hard about this?

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bahman
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:33 pm

Skip wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:21 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:42 pm

You basically deny physics.
Deny physics what? Physics has no physical existence. It's a human intellectual construct to explain the structure, function and relationships of things that actually do exist. Physicists make sound observations, theories and predictions; they also think up formulas to describe those functions and relationships through symbolic representation.
Physics is about how physical functions. Of course it doesn't exist objectively.
Skip wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:21 pm
By future exists I mean that it objectively exist and can accommodate a state of affair.
Yes, and you're still wrong. You may be able to predict what will happen, and your prediction according to a well-conceived formula may be accurate, but you cannot turn an event into a physical thing.
What's so hard about this?
What is an event?

Skip
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Skip » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:51 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:33 pm
Physics is about how physical functions. Of course it doesn't exist objectively.
Then how can I have denied it by saying that other concepts don't have objective, physical, independent real-world existence?

What is an event?
The happenings and/or processes that you're tracking with your symbolic, representations in the formula. What we refer to as "time" is an idea, not a thing, and "the passage of time" is a representation of how we experience change in physical objects, including ourselves. Every micro-second represents billions of events, though we are only aware of a tiny fraction.

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bahman
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:23 pm

Skip wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:51 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:33 pm
Physics is about how physical functions. Of course it doesn't exist objectively.
Then how can I have denied it by saying that other concepts don't have objective, physical, independent real-world existence?
I think that the friction started from the point that you claim that the representation of reality, physics, does not objectively exist. It started in this post. I said that a symbolic formula can represent an aspect of reality. An aspect of reality could be how physical functions.
Skip wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:51 pm
What is an event?
The happenings and/or processes that you're tracking with your symbolic, representations in the formula. What we refer to as "time" is an idea, not a thing, and "the passage of time" is a representation of how we experience change in physical objects, including ourselves. Every micro-second represents billions of events, though we are only aware of a tiny fraction.
Ok. I understand what you are thinking of time and other stuff. My point was that without future, or in another word without time, causation is impossible. That is consequence of that symbolic formula.

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Cerveny
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Cerveny » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:40 am

bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:13 pm
Cerveny wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:04 am
Rather than the Future the History exists. So you can rather consider influence of “(X(t) - X(t-dt))/dt” at the development of the Universe... I personally can see the Future as (Platonic) world/empire of ideas:) If you are interested, you can read more...
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9654#p124332
We have a problem at the beginning of time if we use X(t-dt) to X(t) as a causal chain, t being the big bang time.
No problem, you should consider analogy to certain primordial phase transition...

Skip
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Skip » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:10 am

bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:23 pm
I said that a symbolic formula can represent an aspect of reality. An aspect of reality could be how physical functions.
And I tried to explain that a representation is not a real thing.
Concepts are not real things. The representations of concepts are twice removed from real things. The more levels of symbolism you use, the farther you are from anything that exists.
My point was that without future, or in another word without time, causation is impossible.
You had that the wrong way around the first time you said it. The future doesn't cause either time or any aspect of time.
Without causation, there can be no sequence of events and therefore no future.
That is consequence of that symbolic formula.
Formulae have no consequences.
Representations affect no real things.
Painting a picture doesn't make the subject of the picture come into being; it's either a depiction of a person who already exists, in which case you can compare the two and evaluate whether the picture is an accurate representation, or a fantasy, in which case you can only evaluate it for artistic merit.

I've made this as clear as I can.

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Cerveny
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Re: Does future exist?

Post by Cerveny » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:14 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:27 pm

Do we pass through time or does time pass through us or does it actually matter ?
We are floating on growing/rising surface of Universe (of “time”:) On phase border between History and Future...

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