Neither Determinism nor Free Will exists

[philosopher]

Determinism is evidence that we have no free will, because A leads to B which leads to C. So ultimately, A caused C.

Our will to do whatever we like is not free; It is determined by our brain, which is affected by the rest of the body and the environment/surroundings. Stuff that we cannot do anything about, and even if we did something about it, even if it was indeed our will to do so, the concepts of "will" and "like" although true, cannot be free, because they are governed by external forces ultimately created from Big Bang.

Again, A (Big Bang) caused B (formation of stars, planets etc.) caused C (life, brain activity, will and likes and dislikes).
Simplified, of course (there are lots of steps in-between, but you get the picture).

In short, our lives and our genes and our will and likes and dislikes as well, were all determined since the big bang as a chain-reaction.

Then came Quantum Mechanics, which states that there is no such thing as determinism. Set aside the de-Broglie-Bohm Pilot Wave Theory, the Copenhagen Interpretation along with Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle means that the universe is chaotic, probabilistic in nature.

But this still does not do away with the LACK of free will.
Our brains might be a result of quantum fluctuations and uncertainties, but even if we live in a multiverse split for every action, our actions are still dertermined by quantum fluctuations and probabilities, not a soul with a free will.

No matter how you look at physics, you cannot argue in favor of a free will.

The free will itself in principle is a logical impossibility.

[surreptitious57]

Do you not think that biological organisms have more free will than physical objects

[henry quirk]

"determined by our brain, which is affected by the rest of the body"

I am my brain and body, so: it's determined by 'me'.

#

"environment/surroundings"

What I move through, contend with, use to my advantage; the context of my living, not the determiner.

#

"they are governed by external forces ultimately created from Big Bang."

No, I'm not governed by external forces: again, I contend with them and use them to my advantage.


#

"The free will itself in principle is a logical impossibility."

I may be a "logical impossibility" but here I am.

[philosopher]

Do you not think that biological organisms have more free will than physical objects

This question make as much sense as "do you still beat your wife?"-question.

Physical objects do not have free will.
Biological organisms are composed of physical objects.
Biological organism has therefore no free will.

BUT biological organisms are incredibly complex physical objects, and therefore their will - although the will is not free - is complex too, so complex that you cannot predict the outcome, and hence it looks to the outside observer and to the organism itself, as if it acted on its own free will.

But it is all an illusion created of complexity.

[Logik]

This is a misunderstanding of determinism.

The thought experiment goes roughly as follows: If you understand a system perfectly then you can predict HOW the system reacts to any given set of stimuli.

If I give you ice cream you will be excited. If I kick you you will experience pain. etc etc. Determinism is prediction.

The fact that I can determine how you react to stimuli does not mean I know what stimuli reality will throw at you.

perfect determinism requires perfect knowledge of the subject AND of the environment by the entity doing the 'determination'.
And so it's not that determinism doesn't exist - entities with perfect knowledge don't exist.

Determinism-freewill is a continuum. It's about the proportion between environment+choice which produces the result.
It's about "How much can you control?"

[HexHammer]

Determinism exist, that's why good analysts can predict an outcome, that's why Moore's Law exist, many has tried to break the law but utterly failed!

[Logik]

Determinism exist, that's why good analysts can predict an outcome

That's hardly a difficult thing to do. A coin can predict an outcome too given a set of plausible options.

The trick is to do it correctly and consistently.

[HexHammer]

Determinism exist, that's why good analysts can predict an outcome

That's hardly a difficult thing to do. A coin can predict an outcome too given a set of plausible options.

The trick is to do it correctly and consistently.

You have NO idea what you are talking about. Why does insurance statistics have such eerily accurate average prediction? If things truly was random, there would be more fluctuation in crimes and accidents, which seems very stabil.

[Belinda]

This is a misunderstanding of determinism.

The thought experiment goes roughly as follows: If you understand a system perfectly then you can predict HOW the system reacts to any given set of stimuli.

If I give you ice cream you will be excited. If I kick you you will experience pain. etc etc. Determinism is prediction.

The fact that I can determine how you react to stimuli does not mean I know what stimuli reality will throw at you.

perfect determinism requires perfect knowledge of the subject AND of the environment by the entity doing the 'determination'.
And so it's not that determinism doesn't exist - entities with perfect knowledge don't exist.

Determinism-freewill is a continuum. It's about the proportion between environment+choice which produces the result.
It's about "How much can you control?"

I agree that determinism does not imply prediction except in the case of a being that knows everything including the present and the future and the unspeakably large array of causes and effects.

But determinism and Free Will are discontinuous. You conflate Free Will and freedom of choice. Freedom of choice is a continuum.

[Belinda]

Determinism exist, that's why good analysts can predict an outcome

That's hardly a difficult thing to do. A coin can predict an outcome too given a set of plausible options.

The trick is to do it correctly and consistently.

You have NO idea what you are talking about. Why does insurance statistics have such eerily accurate average prediction? If things truly was random, there would be more fluctuation in crimes and accidents, which seems very stabil.

it is indeed queer that for instance all the dogs in Maine seem to know when they have had their quota of biting people.I wish a statisttician would explain this to me.

[Logik]

Determinism exist, that's why good analysts can predict an outcome

That's hardly a difficult thing to do. A coin can predict an outcome too given a set of plausible options.

The trick is to do it correctly and consistently.

You have NO idea what you are talking about. Why does insurance statistics have such eerily accurate average prediction? If things truly was random, there would be more fluctuation in crimes and accidents, which seems very stabil.

An “accurate average prediction”?
As opposed to an inaccurate average prediction.?

That is a tautology. It is called the median off the statistical distribution.

What a statistician cannot predict is whether any single person is in the 1st, 50th or 99th percentile of the distribution?

[Logik]

This is a misunderstanding of determinism.

The thought experiment goes roughly as follows: If you understand a system perfectly then you can predict HOW the system reacts to any given set of stimuli.

If I give you ice cream you will be excited. If I kick you you will experience pain. etc etc. Determinism is prediction.

The fact that I can determine how you react to stimuli does not mean I know what stimuli reality will throw at you.

perfect determinism requires perfect knowledge of the subject AND of the environment by the entity doing the 'determination'.
And so it's not that determinism doesn't exist - entities with perfect knowledge don't exist.

Determinism-freewill is a continuum. It's about the proportion between environment+choice which produces the result.
It's about "How much can you control?"

I agree that determinism does not imply prediction except in the case of a being that knows everything including the present and the future and the unspeakably large array of causes and effects.

But determinism and Free Will are discontinuous. You conflate Free Will and freedom of choice. Freedom of choice is a continuum.

How do you conceptualise the difference between free will and freedom of choice?

Phenomenologicaly I think it is the same concept.

[Belinda]

Logik wrote:

How do you conceptualise the difference between free will and freedom of choice?

Phenomenologicaly I think it is the same concept.

I suppose that Free Will if it existed would feel the same as a high level of freedom of choice.

I understand the difference to be that while Free Will belongs in the dualist frame, determinism is monist. Freedom of choice within the monist frame is as you describe a continuum and there is no such thing as absolute Free Will. Absolute Free Will is a concept that religions of the afterlife depend upon.

[Logik]

Logik wrote:

How do you conceptualise the difference between free will and freedom of choice?

Phenomenologicaly I think it is the same concept.

I suppose that Free Will if it existed would feel the same as a high level of freedom of choice.

I understand the difference to be that while Free Will belongs in the dualist frame, determinism is monist. Freedom of choice within the monist frame is as you describe a continuum and there is no such thing as absolute Free Will. Absolute Free Will is a concept that religions of the afterlife depend upon.

Given the nature of our reality (no absolutes).

Even monism and dualism are choices. They are just interpretive frameworks.

I am looking for more of an empirical distinction.

[bahman]

This is a misunderstanding of determinism.

The thought experiment goes roughly as follows: If you understand a system perfectly then you can predict HOW the system reacts to any given set of stimuli.

If I give you ice cream you will be excited. If I kick you you will experience pain. etc etc. Determinism is prediction.

The fact that I can determine how you react to stimuli does not mean I know what stimuli reality will throw at you.

perfect determinism requires perfect knowledge of the subject AND of the environment by the entity doing the 'determination'.
And so it's not that determinism doesn't exist - entities with perfect knowledge don't exist.

Determinism-freewill is a continuum. It's about the proportion between environment+choice which produces the result.
It's about "How much can you control?"

I agree that determinism does not imply prediction except in the case of a being that knows everything including the present and the future and the unspeakably large array of causes and effects.

But determinism and Free Will are discontinuous. You conflate Free Will and freedom of choice. Freedom of choice is a continuum.

How do you conceptualise the difference between free will and freedom of choice?

Phenomenologicaly I think it is the same concept.

Free will is the ability to decide in a situation with at least two options. Freedom of choice is about actuality of choices.