There cannot be any emergence

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:55 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:20 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:12 pm
Of course. The way that each brain is structured is the result of whole life experience which this is unique for each person. There is also element of genetics which make two brains different from each other.
And? Both you and I understand the meaning of the word "cat". Bot you and I imagine a similar picture in our heads.

So somewhere in our brains there is wiring/circuitry to convert words to images and images to words.
So some of our experiences may have been different, but some of our experiences are clearly the same.
I think that a set of neurons must fire in a specific way to give an impression of cat. The set however is connect to other part of your brain which this is different from mine.
Logik wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:20 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:56 pm
We don't have access to decoder. MRI cannot provide all processes which carry inside your brain.
You draw no distinction between practical and theoretical limits. Jesus didn't have access to airplanes either, but had he said "humans can't fly" he would've eaten his own words some time around the early 20th century.

If you are going to claim "impossibility" you better demonstrate some law of physics being violated.
You need to know the the location and momentum of all particles. This is prohibited by uncertainty principle.

God cannot know the outcome of our decision given circumstances because our decisions are free.
Last edited by bahman on Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:01 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:32 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:33 pm
Therefore the universe is separable to different things.
By the way... the moment you make this claim you contradict the impossibility of emergence.

You are arguing for local realism which is tantamount to a rejection of quantum non-locality, which is also a rejection of Bell's inequalities.

Ironically - according to Bell's inequalities hidden variables (and therefore - local realism) are impossible quantum interpretations.

Didn't you have a PhD in physics or something?
What is the relation between emergence and Bell's theorem?

Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:26 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:01 pm
What is the relation between emergence and Bell's theorem?
"the universe is separable to different things." is a claim I would from local realist. Empirical violations of Bell's inequality means we are dealing with global variables in the quantum realm.

If you are not accounting for any causal variables (global or local ones) you are necessarily dealing with emergence. By definition.

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts (we have accounted for).

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:54 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:26 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:01 pm
What is the relation between emergence and Bell's theorem?
"the universe is separable to different things." is a claim I would from local realist. Empirical violations of Bell's inequality means we are dealing with global variables in the quantum realm.
You can of course prepare a couple of connected electrons in an experimental setup. The reality is far from being completely connected. We are simply free to do any things.
Logik wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:26 pm
If you are not accounting for any causal variables (global or local ones) you are necessarily dealing with emergence. By definition.
I cannot follow you here. Could you please elaborate?

Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:16 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:54 pm
You can of course prepare a couple of connected electrons in an experimental setup. The reality is far from being completely connected. We are simply free to do any things.
You aren't comparing apples with apples. The quantum realm and the classic (local realism) realms are not comparable. Until somebody comes up with a theory of everything.
I cannot follow you here. Could you please elaborate?
Another way to say "emergence" is "my theory is incomplete".

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts (we have accounted for).
The whole is the sum of its parts if your theory is complete.

So "emergence" is just another way to say "I haven't accounted for all the variables".

A theory needs not be complete to be useful. Q.E.D physics. There are no complete theories in physics.

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:57 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:16 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:54 pm
You can of course prepare a couple of connected electrons in an experimental setup. The reality is far from being completely connected. We are simply free to do any things.
You aren't comparing apples with apples. The quantum realm and the classic (local realism) realms are not comparable. Until somebody comes up with a theory of everything.
The classical regime is derivable from quantum regime.
Logik wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:16 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:54 pm
I cannot follow you here. Could you please elaborate?
Another way to say "emergence" is "my theory is incomplete".

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts (we have accounted for).
The whole is the sum of its parts if your theory is complete.

So "emergence" is just another way to say "I haven't accounted for all the variables".

A theory needs not be complete to be useful. Q.E.D physics. There are no complete theories in physics.
We say that we are facing an anomaly when a theory is not complete.

Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:00 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:57 pm
The classical regime is derivable from quantum regime.
It is? Derive gravity from quantum phenomena please.
Logik wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:16 pm
We say that we are facing an anomaly when a theory is not complete.
Call it what you will. If a theory was complete you would have no anomalies. Or emergence.

You would be in a "clockwork universe". Perfect determinism.

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:05 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:00 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:57 pm
The classical regime is derivable from quantum regime.
It is? Derve gravity for me please.
That one we don't know yet.

Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:08 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:05 pm
That one we don't know yet.
Of course you don't ;)

Because the 'laws' of physics are not scale invariant.

So you could say that scale variance (the antonym of invariance) is an emergent phenomenon of our current physics 'laws'.

Walker
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Walker » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:19 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:47 pm
Walker wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:15 pm
“It is important to realize that in physics today, we have no knowledge of what energy is. We do not have a picture that energy comes in little blobs of a definite amount. It is not that way. However, there are formulas for calculating some numerical quantity, and when we add it all together it gives “28”—always the same number. It is an abstract thing in that it does not tell us the mechanism or the reasons for the various formulas.”

- Feynman
http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_04.html
Naturally. That's how all of science works. Molecules are abstract. Reducing molecules to their parts gives you atoms.
Atoms are abstract. Reducing atoms to their parts gives you leptons and quarks.

Leptons and quarks may be abstract too, but to claim that they are reducible you need to demonstrate a reduction.
A demonstration of a reduction to little blobs of a definite amount?
Feynman wrote:We do not have a picture that energy comes in little blobs of a definite amount. It is not that way.

Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:42 pm

Walker wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:19 pm
A demonstration of a reduction to little blobs of a definite amount?
A demonstration of reduction of an "atom" is decomposing it into protons and electrons.

A demonstration of reduction would be where you decompose "energy" to its constituents.

Quoting Feynman isn't going to get you anywhere. Give us new phenomena.

Or admit that you can't reduce energy.
Walker wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:56 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:26 pm
Setup: Consider a thing which is made of some irreducible parts
There is no such thing.

Walker
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Walker » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:59 pm

Prove energy is a thing.

Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:02 pm

Walker wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:59 pm
Prove energy is a thing.
Since we have no mechanism for proving anything I think you are a tad confused.

Prove energy isn't a thing. By reducing it and coming up with a better theory.

Walker
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Walker » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:11 pm

I think you slipped up when you called energy a thing, and now you're deflecting.

How far will The Cosmos get me?

"The reason energy is so hard to define is because it’s an abstract notion. In physics, the concept of “energy” is really just a kind of shorthand, a tool to help balance the books. Energy is always conserved (or converted into mass) so is incredibly useful in working out the results of any kind of physical or chemical process.

There is no physical “essence” of energy, and no such thing as “pure energy”. Energy is always carried by something, usually in the form of movement."


https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/what-is-energy

Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:12 pm

Walker wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:11 pm
I think you slipped up when you called energy a thing, and now you're deflecting.
Slipped up? For a made-up phenomenon it predicts bloody well!

Next you are going to ask me to prove time and gravity. In science you don't define/prove things - that's what philosophers do. In science you measure and predict things.

If you can quantify/measure energy - it exists as far as science is concerned.

If you got a better theory and a better way to measure energy, let us know. Don't keep it to yourself.

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