Why is science treated like something magical, mythical, enchanted, etc.?

[IstillBELIEVEinPOMO]

Science is just making observations, taking measurements, manipulating and controling material (experiments), and constructing models using symbols. Anybody can do it. It is nothing more than a complex variation of flipping burgers at McDonald's or playing basketball.

Sure, some people are more skilled at it than others. But some people are more skilled at flipping burgers or playing basketball. It is that way with any work.

Yet, we are told of the "predictive power" of science. We are told about the "wonders" produced by engineers and the "miracles" produced by modern medicine.

Scientists will insist that they are just professionals doing an honest day's work for a paycheck just like a carpenter or an air traffic controller, I am sure. But more often than not members of the non-scientific public are treated like clueless, incompetent inferiors who are far away from the truth/reality that scientists are intimate with every day. It is not much different from the attitude that governments, militaries, law enforcement, corporations, Silicon Valley, religious leaders, etc. often have towards the general public.

It is not elitism that I am talking about. I am talking about how science and scientists are treated like powerful gods, misunderstood prophets, etc. It sounds like scientists are the few chosen to perform some sacred rain dance that they occasionally share with the mass of commoners on the outside.

I thought that the Enlightenment and its most prized creation, modern science, were supposed to liberate us from magical, mythical thinking and self-anointed priests. I thought that science--rigorously peer-reviewed, self-correcting, holding-the-highest-standards-of-objectivity science--is above all of that.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that science has its moments when it is purely the pursuit of objective knowledge, wisdom, etc. Those moments are extremely refreshing and intellectually satisfying. But religion, casual personal research, journalism, etc. have those moments too. But no opportunity is ever missed to remind us of the breathtaking superiority of science compared to those alternatives. Once again science and scientists are--mostly through myth--elevated to the status of powerful gods, misunderstood prophets, etc.

[Walker]

By scientists?

That would be an oxymoron.

[henry quirk]

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24969

[-1-]

Why is science treated like something magical, mythical, enchanted, etc.?

Actually, outside of North America it's not treated as such. Outside of North America science is treated as knowledge.

Inside North America the STEM subjects are treated hush-hush up to and including all high schools, in order to make the masses ignorant and unable to think for themselves. This ignorance aids the economy, and makes nice little Christians out of everybody who believe that the holy trinity is possible, being all-powerful is possible, and that the theory of neo-Darwinian evolution is not only impossible, and unproven, but it's also devil-spawned and evil.

[IstillBELIEVEinPOMO]

Science is the tool we use to understand the world.

Scientism is the belief that tool is applicable to 'everything'.

Scientism is based on rational thought, such as attempting to demarcate science and pseudoscience.

The awe, wonder, reverence, aura, magical powers, etc. that seems to increasingly accompany people's view of science is not addressed by addressing scientism.

Consider the phrase "the predictive power of science". People who use that phrase are not necessarily being scientistic. They may recognize and concede that science cannot be applied to everything and/or that it is "soft" when applied to things like the study of society, the mind, etc. But, in my view, they are--consciously or subconsciously--assigning magical, mythical qualities to it when they talk about its "predictive power" where it has been applied most effectively.

I have never understood this awe and fascination that people have in the presence of science and technology. Again, it is nothing more than making observations, taking measurements, manipulating and controlling material in an experimental manner, and building models with math, graphs, and other symbols. A robot could do such mundane work. AI may eventually replace humans in doing such work. It has as much magical, mythical quality as flipping burgers at McDonald's.

Again, it has its moments when it satisfies our need to understand. But so do religion and other pursuits.

The phrase "the predictive power of science" reminds me of the phrase "the power of prayer".

But people do not pretend that prayer is some rupture from some inferior past way of functioning and some above-the-fray high ground.

If centuries-old indigenous knowledge answers a question or solves a problem that scientists struggle with, nobody talks about the "power" of indigenous knowledge. Such talk would be quickly dismissed as superstition.

Maybe--sorry, Enlightenment thinkers--we are beings who experience and know the world primarily as a source of enchantment, awe, wonder, etc. and everything thing we encounter, including our own creations such as modern science, will ultimately be experienced through that orientation? Maybe no amount of rationality can overcome that? Maybe transhumanism is trying to overcome it and make us purely rational beings?

[IstillBELIEVEinPOMO]

Actually, outside of North America it's not treated as such. Outside of North America science is treated as knowledge.

China is the first place to come to my mind.

Is China an example that North Americans should follow with respect to science?

Inside North America the STEM subjects are treated hush-hush up to and including all high schools, in order to make the masses ignorant and unable to think for themselves. This ignorance aids the economy, and makes nice little Christians out of everybody who believe that the holy trinity is possible, being all-powerful is possible, and that the theory of neo-Darwinian evolution is not only impossible, and unproven, but it's also devil-spawned and evil.

Evidence, please.

[Greta]

If you are not captivated and enthralled by all aspects of nature, including Homo sapiens' exploits, then you are not paying attention (in China, as per the above post, people will tend to be much too busy and pressured to pay attention to the charming details of life).

Being enraptured by the extraordinariness of life and reality has little to do with the scientific method itself, rather the joy of discovery when the scientific method prises open another of nature's secrets.

[IstillBELIEVEinPOMO]

Inside North America the STEM subjects are treated hush-hush up to and including all high schools, in order to make the masses ignorant and unable to think for themselves. This ignorance aids the economy, and makes nice little Christians out of everybody who believe that the holy trinity is possible, being all-powerful is possible, and that the theory of neo-Darwinian evolution is not only impossible, and unproven, but it's also devil-spawned and evil.

I should add that much of that sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Again, evidence, please.

[IstillBELIEVEinPOMO]

If you are not captivated and enthralled by all aspects of nature, including Homo sapiens' exploits, then you are not paying attention (in China, as per the above post, people will tend to be much too busy and pressured to pay attention to the charming details of life).

Being enraptured by the extraordinariness of life and reality has little to do with the scientific method itself, rather the joy of discovery when the scientific method prises open another of nature's secrets.

Yes, like I have said, science has its moments when it refreshingly satisfies such needs and wants.

But I do not think that our modernist, Enlightenment culture has much patience or use for the joy of discovery.

I would say that the "predictive power" of science inspires so much awe because science has proven to be the most effective tool for domination. And apparently nothing satisfies Western civilization more than the quest for total domination of the non-human world. And apparently such thirst--such hunger--is being assimilated into every culture in this neoliberal, globalizing world we now inhabit.

The way that I understand intellectual history, there was a time when there was no physics, chemistry, geology, psychology, anthropology, etc. Instead, there was only philosophy. But somewhere along the way some people decided that something call science, along with its mythical, supposedly superior "method", was too good for things like metaphysics and should break away and work its magic on its own without all of the baggage of philosophy.

Fast forward 100 to 200 years and watching that aforementioned magic at work is like watching burgers being flipped at McDonald's. Yet, when people look at it they see things like "predictive power", and they are in awe.

To some of us who are paying attention that aforementioned quest for domination is repugnant. Therefore, the prized, favorite tool of that quest is--those aforementioned occasional moments it has notwithstanding--at best a source of confusion, at worst a source of disgust, not a source of awe, enchantment, wonder, etc.

Then again, the scientific community is notorious for being bad a public relations. Therefore, maybe science is an awesome adventure full of enchantment and wonder but that is never effectively conveyed to general audiences.

[Greta]

Then again, the scientific community is notorious for being bad a public relations. Therefore, maybe science is an awesome adventure full of enchantment and wonder but that is never effectively conveyed to general audiences.

If you think science is not full of enchantment and wonder you are not paying attention. Science is largely a study of nature - an attempt to better understand the world in which we live.

Don't you find nature awesome and enchanting or do you, like some, see nature and the cosmos as dross with only human mysticism being of any worth or interest?

[IstillBELIEVEinPOMO]

If you think science is not full of enchantment and wonder you are not paying attention.

I thought that science and rationality were supposed to LIBERATE us from such things.

Science is largely a study of nature - an attempt to better understand the world in which we live.

In theory that may be the spirit of science.

In practice--historically and contemporarily--it is looking more and more like modern science was intended to be, and continues to be used as, a tool for domination.

How many research grants are awarded with the goal of better understanding the world?

Don't you find nature awesome and enchanting or do you, like some, see nature and the cosmos as dross with only human mysticism being of any worth or interest?

The point is that science mostly disenchants, yet people are enchanted by science itself.

Again, science does have its moments when it refreshingly yields greater understanding and deep intellectual satisfaction. But poetry probably has a lot of those moments too. Yet, nobody talks about the "power" of poetry.

[henry quirk]

"The awe, wonder, reverence, aura, magical powers, etc. that seems to increasingly accompany people's view of science is not addressed by addressing scientism."

I disagree. Seems to me the 'magical thinking' you're talkin' about is at the heart of scientism (sumthin' I say several times, in different ways, in the other thread).

[-1-]

Inside North America the STEM subjects are treated hush-hush up to and including all high schools, in order to make the masses ignorant and unable to think for themselves. This ignorance aids the economy, and makes nice little Christians out of everybody who believe that the holy trinity is possible, being all-powerful is possible, and that the theory of neo-Darwinian evolution is not only impossible, and unproven, but it's also devil-spawned and evil.

I should add that much of that sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Again, evidence, please.

i only sounds like a conspiracy theory to you if and because you live in the usa; or because you live outside of the usa.

[Greta]

If you think science is not full of enchantment and wonder you are not paying attention.

I thought that science and rationality were supposed to LIBERATE us from such things.

Rather, it is the role of religion to blind us from the wonders of nature to focus on dull obsessive anthropocentrism.

This anthropocentric view narrows human focus. It's an adaptation that came about to keep humans focused on competing and contributing to the group rather than being helplessly spellbound by the miracles that are and surround us - which is what would happen if we had the senses and attention to perceive reality as it is rather than the religion-diluted abstracted version most usually noticed.

Science is largely a study of nature - an attempt to better understand the world in which we live.

In theory that may be the spirit of science.

In practice--historically and contemporarily--it is looking more and more like modern science was intended to be, and continues to be used as, a tool for domination.

How many research grants are awarded with the goal of better understanding the world?

I worked in a scientific institution for a decade and you are barking up the wrong tree. Research grants are provided by politicians, not by scientists. You cannot blame science, scientists or the scientific method for, say, decisions made by politicians with coal connections to stymie sustainable energy use.

Science - the ability to learn more about what's going on in reality - is powerful. It can be used for good or ill.

If we are to eschew all power for fear of it being used for ill, maybe we could start with dismantling the military, which we all agree with tremendously powerful? But wait! If we all lose our military then we become vulnerable, so we can't do that. Then maybe we can eschew scientific power in case someone uses it for ill? If the US decided to further embrace theocracy, sack scientists and slash their inconvenient research, the nation would soon become a province of China, who would continue scientifically advancing.

Don't you find nature awesome and enchanting or do you, like some, see nature and the cosmos as dross with only human mysticism being of any worth or interest?

The point is that science mostly disenchants, yet people are enchanted by science itself.

Again, science does have its moments when it refreshingly yields greater understanding and deep intellectual satisfaction. But poetry probably has a lot of those moments too. Yet, nobody talks about the "power" of poetry.

Science is the study of nature and how it works. Perhaps you are only enchanted by people, societies, myths, superstitions and arts?

These things are compelling but so are stars, planets, animals and plants - cosmology, physics, astronomy and biology. I went through a phase when I was immersed in the human world and culture, almost completely oblivious to and dismissive of nature, which for me was simply the backdrop in which my human dramas played out.

In retirement I have slowed down and realised that this desperate human-focused phase is exactly that - a phase.

We are driven to survive and succeed. Yet people on their deathbeds everywhere are regretting their singular focus and wishing they'd paid more attention to the magnificence of nature - both within and without. Often they wonder how they could have been so blind to life's marvels for so long. Its actually an easy answer: they were focused on surviving professionally and socially and they unwittingly wore self imposed blinkers to stay on task.

Science at its best is about taking the blinkers off and paying true attention, just as we did as curious children.

[IstillBELIEVEinPOMO]

Rather, it is the role of religion to blind us from the wonders of nature to focus on dull obsessive anthropocentrism.

This anthropocentric view narrows human focus. It's an adaptation that came about to keep humans focused on competing and contributing to the group rather than being helplessly spellbound by the miracles that are and surround us - which is what would happen if we had the senses and attention to perceive reality as it is rather than the religion-diluted abstracted version most usually noticed.

And now people are helplessly spellbound by a "method" that a few humans in one part of the world in one brief moment in time came up with.

Yet you accuse people who lived all over the globe before that "method" of being pathetically ethnocentric and anthropocentric.

I worked in a scientific institution for a decade and you are barking up the wrong tree. Research grants are provided by politicians, not by scientists. You cannot blame science, scientists or the scientific method for, say, decisions made by politicians with coal connections to stymie sustainable energy use.

Science - the ability to learn more about what's going on in reality - is powerful. It can be used for good or ill.

I thought that scientists are powerful people who have mastered a powerful "method".

Now you are telling us that they are powerless and not to blame them.

Yet, people treat science like it is some mythical force with unprecedented powers.

I have replied that science is nothing more than making observations, taking measurements, manipulating material, and using symbols to build models. It is as mythical and powerful as flipping burgers at McDonald's, I have said.

Why people take this "method" and treat it like it is some powerful genie in a bottle that can be abused to cause a lot of ill or put to good use to realize utopia is not being answered.

It can't be because of the understanding it gives us. Very few people are interested in understanding. And we can get the understanding that some of us do need and want from poetry, journalism, religion, the fine arts, etc.

And we can learn more about what's going on in reality without that "method". But, again, nobody talks about the "power" of poetry.

If we are to eschew all power for fear of it being used for ill, maybe we could start with dismantling the military, which we all agree with tremendously powerful? But wait! If we all lose our military then we become vulnerable, so we can't do that. Then maybe we can eschew scientific power in case someone uses it for ill? If the US decided to further embrace theocracy, sack scientists and slash their inconvenient research, the nation would soon become a province of China, who would continue scientifically advancing.

In other words, science is just another tool like law and physical force that depends on who is using it.

Yet, unlike jury deliberations or pat-downs, people assign mythical, enchanted qualities to science. I gave a possible explanation: that is the way humans experience a lot of things. Nobody else here is answering the question why people treat science that way while we are told that science liberated us from such behavior.

Maybe it's because looking through a telescope is sexier than sitting on a jury?

Science at its best is about taking the blinkers off and paying true attention, just as we did as curious children.

Yes, as I have already said, science has its moments when it gives us that experience.

But so do philosophy, poetry, history, art, architecture, music, sports, journalism, and many other pursuits.

Yet--again--you never here anybody talking about the "power" of poetry.