Evolution questions

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Philosophy Explorer
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Evolution questions

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:11 am

I did a thread about this before, but I have nagging doubts so please bear with me.

First I think we can agree that if a human (i.e. HS) tried to have sex with a gorilla, it's not going to happen, even with the state of technology as it is today.

According to science, it says that mutations can occur. Even if that were the case doesn't mean that the new mutant can have sex with a member of the established species to create more members of the new species. Furthermore to ensure survival of the new species, how many new mutants must be created?

Another good case are the dogs. When they first came about (was it 10,000 years ago?), how did it come about? I think I read it was due to crossbreeding between coyotes and wolves. So I ask why would the people of that time crossbreed the animals to produce the dogs? And how would they know how to crossbreed them to produce desirable characteristics such as being friendly?

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲

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Greta
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Re: Evolution questions

Post by Greta » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:28 am

Phil, humans never had fertile relations with apes. Rather apes that were very very very very very slightly more hominid in configuration or in the dominance of their genes mated with others, and this occurred for well over over million years to produce today's dominant hominid.
Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:11 am
Another good case are the dogs. When they first came about (was it 10,000 years ago?), how did it come about? I think I read it was due to crossbreeding between coyotes and wolves. So I ask why would the people of that time crossbreed the animals to produce the dogs? And how would they know how to crossbreed them to produce desirable characteristics such as being friendly?
Dogs did not orginate in the Americas, so coyotes were not involved at first.

Most dogs simply originated from wolves, although there were hybrids on each continent with the local canids (in Aust we have dingo/dog crossbreeds). At first the most aggressive animals must have been driven away or killed. Early humans would not have tolerated any aggression from scavenging wolves. Increasingly aggression was bred out of any wolf packs with generations of experience following around human tribes for their scraps.

Early humans would have noticed the nearby wolves responding to any threat and no doubt considered that useful. The raising of abandoned puppies by children would have been a key development. Ultimately, an animal adopted from the wild by humans will always be less reliable than animals raised by humans from birth. Even then, without daily gentle and nurturing human contact, domestic animals will revert. Ditto "domestic humans" for that matter :)

Philosophy Explorer
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Re: Evolution questions

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:21 am

Another thing on my mind is the evolutionary pace that led to HS.

Our brains are able to think and create at a rate far, far in advance of other animals so we have speech, abstract thinking, art, fire, agriculture, human emotion. We have a thumb (along with other primates) good for handling tools.

Surely radiation and maybe other factors have led to this stage. But they could lead to other things that may not benefit the species. And it's hard to believe that all of these things and others I haven't named could occur in such a short period of time.

Your thoughts?

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲

Skip
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Re: Evolution questions

Post by Skip » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:01 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:11 am
First I think we can agree that if a human (i.e. HS) tried to have sex with a gorilla,
They can have sex, provided the gorilla were willing (Why would a gorilla accept such a feeble sex partner?? And if the gorilla isn't willing, I really, really don't recommend that you insist.); they just wouldn't have babies, not even sterile ones, like horses and donkeys. What they produce is not a mutant but a hybrid, and most hybrids do not reproduce.
technology as it is today.
Artificial insemination is certainly possible. Still no babies, though. Not close enough genetically.
According to science, it says that mutations can occur.
Mutations occur in all species all the time. Mostly, the difference in the mutated offspring is too small to notice. Sometimes it's fatal and the mutated offspring doesn't make it through gestation, or infancy, or childhood. Sometimes it's just odd or funny-looking; sometimes it's beneficial. It may or may not be transmitted to the next generation.
Even if that were the case doesn't mean that the new mutant can have sex with a member of the established species to create more members of the new species.
If it lives to puberty, it certainly can have sex with a member of its own species. It does not then give rise to a new species; it just makes another generation of the established species, with or without a modified trait.
Furthermore to ensure survival of the new species, how many new mutants must be created?
Just the one - but its mutant trait would have to be 1. extremely adventageous 2. transmittable 3. dominant - and then you'd have to wait 30-100 generations to establish a distinguishable new species.
Another good case are the dogs. When they first came about (was it 10,000 years ago?),
Closer to 100,000.
how did it come about?
The wolves that had traits most compatible with human (sociability, docility, poor hunting skills) hung around human settlements or encampments and mated with one another (because the independent, aggressive ones were not available) and made pups that appealed to the humans, who tamed and adopted them, and when those tame wolves grew up, they mated with other tame wolves.
So I ask why would the people of that time crossbreed the animals to produce the dogs?
They didn't. The wolves bred themselves. Once they had become domesticated enough for people to lord it over, they were bred (with other dogs) for traits that people wanted.
And how would they know how to crossbreed them to produce desirable characteristics such as being friendly?
You take the friendliest male and the friendliest female and, as soon as she comes into heat, lock them in together.
It ain't Stonehenge science!

gaffo
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Re: Evolution questions

Post by gaffo » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:07 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:11 am
I did a thread about this before, but I have nagging doubts so please bear with me.

First I think we can agree that if a human (i.e. HS) tried to have sex with a gorilla, it's not going to happen, even with the state of technology as it is today.
due to 48 instead of 46 chromosomes.

and why we can assume Neanderthal/Home Erectus/etc had 46 - since we bred with them and have 1-percent of thier genes in us today.

Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:11 am
According to science, it says that mutations can occur. Even if that were the case doesn't mean that the new mutant can have sex with a member of the established species to create more members of the new species.
which would require them to be fertile, which depends upon the divergence of the parents - mules are infertile (except a couple which were not) - and ligers, which have a "low count" - but not infertile. so we can assume Tiger and Lions are more closely related than horses and mules.

Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:11 am
Furthermore to ensure survival of the new species, how many new mutants must be created?
depends upon the number of hybrids produced and the environment they are living under.

Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:11 am
Another good case are the dogs. When they first came about (was it 10,000 years ago?), how did it come about? I think I read it was due to crossbreeding between coyotes and wolves. So I ask why would the people of that time crossbreed the animals to produce the dogs? And how would they know how to crossbreed them to produce desirable characteristics such as being friendly?

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
I see ive alreay replied last week on this.

carry on............

gaffo
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Re: Evolution questions

Post by gaffo » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:09 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:21 am
Another thing on my mind is the evolutionary pace that led to HS.

Our brains are able to think and create at a rate far, far in advance of other animals so we have speech, abstract thinking, art, fire, agriculture, human emotion. We have a thumb (along with other primates) good for handling tools.

Surely radiation and maybe other factors have led to this stage. But they could lead to other things that may not benefit the species. And it's hard to believe that all of these things and others I haven't named could occur in such a short period of time.

Your thoughts?

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
4 millions years is long enough time Sir.

gaffo
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Evolution questions

Post by gaffo » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:13 am

Skip wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:01 am
[
Artificial insemination is certainly possible. Still no babies, though. Not close enough genetically.

48 is not 46 thankfully.

if apes had 46 we probably could get a viable baby.

thankfully we can't.

never underestimate science though - i'm sure it could be possible to make ape sperm produce 23 instead of 24 in the far future and allow a viable offspring ;-/.

gaffo
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Re: Evolution questions

Post by gaffo » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:17 am

Skip wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:01 am

The wolves that had traits most compatible with human (sociability, docility, poor hunting skills) hung around human settlements or encampments and mated with one another (because the independent, aggressive ones were not available) and made pups that appealed to the humans, who tamed and adopted them, and when those tame wolves grew up, they mated with other tame wolves.

yep! the same above was reproduced/accelerated via control environment by the "russian guy" in the 1940's? with foxes.

gaffo
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Re: Evolution questions

Post by gaffo » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:20 am

Skip wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:01 am
Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:11 am
So I ask why would the people of that time crossbreed the animals to produce the dogs?
They didn't. The wolves bred themselves. Once they had become domesticated enough for people to lord it over, they were bred (with other dogs) for traits that people wanted.
And how would they know how to crossbreed them to produce desirable characteristics such as being friendly?
You take the friendliest male and the friendliest female and, as soon as she comes into heat, lock them in together.
It ain't Stonehenge science!
precisely!

well said!

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