Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Philosophy Explorer
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Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Wed May 16, 2018 6:52 pm

Think carefully.

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QuantumT
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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by QuantumT » Wed May 16, 2018 8:52 pm

It has me! :mrgreen:

Jokes aside, ofcourse it has! Just before TBB, when it was the size of a marble, it had a location, if you compare it to the universe we see now.
But since we have no geometric model of the universe, that location could be anywhere!

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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Wed May 16, 2018 9:13 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:52 pm
It has me! :mrgreen:

Jokes aside, ofcourse it has! Just before TBB, when it was the size of a marble, it had a location, if you compare it to the universe we see now.
But since we have no geometric model of the universe, that location could be anywhere!
Do we need a geometric model to know it has a center? You're saying there are an infinite number of spots that equally qualify. Doesn't sound reasonable.

Since the big bang, the universe has expanded. This implies rhat it's always had a center at every point in time
since a geometric model can be calculated based on physical law.

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QuantumT
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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by QuantumT » Wed May 16, 2018 9:21 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:13 pm
Do we need a geometric model to know it has a center? You're saying there are an infinite number of spots that equally qualify. Doesn't sound reasonable.

Since the big bang, the universe has expanded. This implies rhat it's always had a center at every point in time
since a geometric model can be calculated based on physical law.

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We need a geometric model to pinpoint the middle of everything. But we cannot see the whole universe. The light from the galaxies furthest from Earth hasn't reached us yet. That's the main issue. We only see a part of the picture.

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Noax
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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by Noax » Wed May 16, 2018 10:00 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:13 pm
Do we need a geometric model to know it has a center? You're saying there are an infinite number of spots that equally qualify.
Assuming 'the universe' is this ball of spacetime in which we find ourselves, yes, there is a geometric model, and yes it has a center. Just one, not an infinite number.
I think QuantumT has a different model in mind, which perhaps is that of space, somewhere in which the big bang happened.

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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by Noax » Wed May 16, 2018 10:20 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:52 pm
We need a geometric model to pinpoint the middle of everything. But we cannot see the whole universe. The light from the galaxies furthest from Earth hasn't reached us yet. That's the main issue. We only see a part of the picture.
I'm getting a model of 'the universe' as everything whose light will ever eventually reach us. That is a type-1 definition, and a very reasonable one. The universe is bounded by the event horizon, beyond which no interaction is possible, and thus as nonexistent to us as some alternate world where we have unicorn pets. The center of that universe is indeed 'me!', and has nothing to do with where the big bang happened.

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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by QuantumT » Wed May 16, 2018 10:46 pm

Noax wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:20 pm
...where the big bang happened.
I'd rather call it: The origin of the expansion.

In M theory the expansion does not necessarily spread to all sides, but could be like a balloon, where it expands away from the place where the air is blown in.

But it's unprovable, like a multiverse. Any opinion is as valid as a theory.

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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by Noax » Wed May 16, 2018 11:10 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:46 pm
I'd rather call it: The origin of the expansion.
Same thing essentially. That origin is not the center of 'everything that can ever be seen by us giving infinite time'. The center of that definition of 'universe' is 'us' since 'us' is key to the definition.
In M theory the expansion does not necessarily spread to all sides
I'm not much up on M-Theory, so I cannot comment on the geometry of it. It has sides????
but could be like a balloon, where it expands away from the place where the air is blown in.
The standard balloon analogy holds with Minkowski spacetime, and it has no special air hole.
Of course the balloon has a center. You just have to stop looking on the surface of the balloon for it.

This is a completely different definition of 'the universe'. There are no edges to it (a place where all the other 'stuff'' is only that way, but not the other way), and there is infinitely more to it than that tiny subset of stuff that is ever visible from here. That universe very much has a center, and like the balloon, that center is not 'here' or anywhere else on the balloon surface.

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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by QuantumT » Wed May 16, 2018 11:32 pm

Noax wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:10 pm
I'm not much up on M-Theory, so I cannot comment on the geometry of it. It has sides????
Well, in M-Theory you have to imagine reality as flying carpets on top of eachother. When they collide, a new universe is born, like a mushroom, on the surface of one of them. The mushroom and the balloon analogy describe the same phenomenon. In this theory there are countless universes, and many many more to be born in the future.

I do not support this theory, but as a lover of science, I do not deny it neither.

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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by Ginkgo » Thu May 17, 2018 12:31 am

Actually, the universe has no centre and prior to the Big Bang it also had no centre because there was no time and space. The universe is not expanding out of a centre, it is the same everywhere, the universe expands equally in all places.

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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu May 17, 2018 12:45 am

All movement extends from a point, with all points being centers in themselves. The universe can have infinite centers, due to the presence of 0d point space as a quantum median, which summate as one point. All points in themselves are centers of origin, with these centers being origins of movement.

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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by Ginkgo » Thu May 17, 2018 12:55 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:45 am
All movement extends from a point, with all points being centers in themselves. The universe can have infinite centers, due to the presence of 0d point space as a quantum median, which summate as one point. All points in themselves are centers of origin, with these centers being origins of movement.
I'm not sure what a quantum medium has to do with points in space. Would you care to expand?

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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by QuantumT » Thu May 17, 2018 1:08 am

Ginkgo wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:31 am
Actually, the universe has no centre and prior to the Big Bang it also had no centre because there was no time and space. The universe is not expanding out of a centre, it is the same everywhere, the universe expands equally in all places.
It's funny when people assume that they know the universe.
Kind of like an intelligent gut bacteria, that claims to know what's going on around it.

We don't know shit when it comes to the origin and geometric expansion of the universe!
To claim otherwise is arrogant and ignorant.

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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by Ginkgo » Thu May 17, 2018 1:21 am

QuantumT wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:08 am
Ginkgo wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:31 am
Actually, the universe has no centre and prior to the Big Bang it also had no centre because there was no time and space. The universe is not expanding out of a centre, it is the same everywhere, the universe expands equally in all places.
It's funny when people assume that they know the universe.
Kind of like an intelligent gut bacteria, that claims to know what's going on around it.

We don't know shit when it comes to the origin and geometry of the universe!
To claim otherwise is arrogant and ignorant.
You might not no shit about the universe but there are others who do know about the origins of the universe. To claim otherwise is arrogant and ignorant.

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Re: Can you honestly say the universe has no center?

Post by QuantumT » Thu May 17, 2018 1:30 am

Ginkgo wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:21 am
You might not no shit about the universe but there are others who do know about the origins of the universe. To claim otherwise is arrogant and ignorant.
Ok, so you're a subscriber to the "We think we know" club :mrgreen:

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