What is gravity?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

seeds
Posts: 1011
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: What is gravity?

Post by seeds »

seeds wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:10 pm ...you are simply confirming my suggestion that there is yet a deeper explanation for the workings of gravity.
uwot wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:59 pm Well seeds, you know we're both on the same page with this. Neither of us is content with the purely mathematical description of reality.
Agreed.
seeds wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:10 pm In which case, I am simply speculating that it might have something to do with, if not quantum entanglement (as was offered in the OP), then some other aspect of the universe’s underlying informational script...
uwot wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:59 pm Yep. It might do. The trick is to design an experiment that would provide an result that is consistent with your assumption that there is an "underlying informational script"...
That sounds like a good idea, uwot.

However, the problem with it can be seen in what I tried to point out in a quote that I posted in one of your threads a while back – a quote that I am now going to shamelessly repost here:
Physicist Nick Herbert wrote: “Legendary King Midas never knew the feel of silk or a human hand after everything he touched turned to gold. Humans are stuck in a similar Midas-like predicament: we can't directly experience the true texture of quantum reality because everything we touch turns to matter.”
In other words (as I basically stated in that other thread), we can never directly know or experience (as it really is) the exact nature of the informational underpinning of the universe (the Kantian “thing-in-itself”). And that's because any attempt to do so instantly transforms it from its noumenal state into its phenomenal state.

In which case, it seems as though any experiment that one could devise that would provide a result that is consistent with my assumption would only yield a situation where we still have no choice but to “infer” what occurred in the quantum realm.

(Continued in next post)
_______
seeds
Posts: 1011
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: What is gravity?

Post by seeds »

_______

(Continued from prior post)

...I suggest that the trick to understanding where I am coming from with this thread is to stop trying to analyze gravity from the perspective of standing on a planet in the midst of a near infinite array of separate (3-D) objects (i.e., from the perspective of, again. Bohm’s “Explicate Order”),...

...and, instead, try to immerse yourself (your mind) in the alleged “oneness” of Bohm’s (holographic-like) “Implicate Order” where there is no separation (no space) between anything – just interpenetrating (entangled) waves (or fields) of some kind of infinitely malleable energy substance that is capable of producing pretty much anything imaginable.

All of which is loosely represented in the broken pieces of one of my other hologram illustrations...

Image

In which case, if there are no separate objects in that deeper context of reality that interact with each other in the normal visualizable sense, but only through the transformation of fields of information via algorithmic processes...

...then this phenomenon that we call gravity – a phenomenon that we experience up in the open spatial arena of the “Explicate” level of reality,...

(a spatial “arena,” btw, whose very existence and ontological layout is itself a product of the underlying informational substrate)

...must simply be an aspect of the implicate “scripting” (or coding, or whatever one wishes to call it) that delineates the features of gravity in a way that is no different from the way it delineates the features of an apple tree, or the sun, or any other phenomenon appearing up at the explicate level of the universal hologram.

Now I apologize for being so long winded about all of this, but the ultimate point is that to understand where I am coming from with this thread,...

...then you have to stop visualizing gravity from the perspective of the explicated (3-D) level of, again, the “universal hologram” and, instead, try to mentally immerse yourself within the interpenetrating “oneness” of the informational matrix from which it all arises.

Otherwise, almost all of your conclusions about gravity (or any other phenomenon, for that matter) will be derived from a purely (and literal) “superficial” frame of reference.
_______
Atla
Posts: 2977
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: What is gravity?

Post by Atla »

How can this "informational underpinning" be oneness, and separate interacting wavefunctions at the same time?

And why do particles with different mass, or no mass at all, show the same kind of superpositional behaviour? Wouldn't that mean that mass has nothing to do with gravity?
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 2229
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: What is gravity?

Post by Sculptor »

seeds wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:48 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:22 am You have missed the obvious here. That was a lovely demonstration by the astronaut. But it is blindingly obvious that you can't actually do the same thing on earth as those magnets which were in free fall on the space station, would have soon hit the ground.
On a planet with higher gravity the magnets would have much more to overcome.
I was mostly going by Impenitent's overall comments, especially this one...
Impenitent wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:47 pm perhaps if the magnet was far enough away from a gravitational source it would do weird stuff...
...so I felt he was speaking about the properties of a magnet - in and of itself - behaving oddly (“doing weird stuff”) when situated in varying gravitational fields.

However, as was demonstrated in the video clip, it seemed to behave precisely as one would expect it to behave.

Also, while we’re at it, you said the following about my OP:
Sculptor wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:09 am This is like asking if people's appreciation of the Mona Lisa has something to do with the chemical bonding of titanium lead and linseed oil.
How so?
_______
In reponse to ".is it possible that the greater the volume and complexity of the entangled morass of quantum waves that comprise a planet’s overall wavefunction is what determines the strength of that which we call a planet’s gravity?"

The reason I said that is that the strength of a "planet's gravity" is exactly determined by what can be directly observed, not by any minute details of physical properties.
The "strength" of gravity of a planet is EXACTLY determined by its mass. It is that simple.
In fact, in a very significant way the gravity of any object is its mass.
Impenitent
Posts: 3032
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: What is gravity?

Post by Impenitent »

and then again, magnetism wears off eventually...

-Imp
seeds
Posts: 1011
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: What is gravity?

Post by seeds »

Atla wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:09 pm How can this "informational underpinning" be oneness, and separate interacting wavefunctions at the same time?
Atla, admittedly, I was taking a bit of license with the word “oneness,” so you are correct to point that out.

Nevertheless, keeping in mind that the hologram is just a speculative analogy that helps us to visualize certain interpretations of quantum mechanics,...

(for example, Bohm’s “Implicate Order/Explicate Order” interpretation, or the concept of quantum entanglement and the “spooky action at a distance” issue, as another example)

...then the state of oneness to which I was referring is metaphorically represented in the broken pieces of the laser hologram.

For it seems that no matter how far you break the photographic plate down into smaller pieces,...

Image

...then other than a few minor issues, the three objects keep appearing (in their entirety) in the broken pieces.

And what that suggests is that the underlying (and interpenetrating) patterns of information that delineate the construction of the key, the die, and the paperclip seem to exist ubiquitously throughout the entire photographic emulsion, and can thus be thought of as existing in kind of a “quasi” state of oneness.

All of which, again, is merely meant to be a simplistic way of helping to visualize quantum entanglement.

Now clearly (as you alluded to), there must be some form of separation between the patterns of information in the photographic plate in order to account for how and why the objects consistently emerge in their specific and separate 3-D forms when the laser shines in,...

...so this wasn’t meant to imply the same form of oneness touted by the hardcore nondualists.

(Continued in next post)
_______
seeds
Posts: 1011
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: What is gravity?

Post by seeds »

_______

(Continued from prior post)
Atla wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:09 pm And why do particles with different mass, or no mass at all, show the same kind of superpositional behaviour? Wouldn't that mean that mass has nothing to do with gravity?
Just as a simple point of reference, according to Wiki...
Wiki wrote: Mass is both a property of a physical body and a measure of its resistance to acceleration (a change in its state of motion) when a net force is applied. An object's mass also determines the strength of its gravitational attraction to other bodies.
In the front of the thread I tried to speculatively suggest that any object with a greater mass than some other object...

(a bowling ball compared to a sparrow’s feather, for example)

...is simply a situation where the object of greater mass has a greater array of quantum constituents (as in more waveforms) comprising its structure.

And what that implies is that (theoretically) an object with a greater mass will be caught-up in a more complex degree of entanglement with the overall wave structure of a planet.

And the point is that if there is a greater degree of entanglement between object and planet, then it means that when we attempt to move or lift a more massive object up at the “Explicate” level of reality, then the more resistance we encounter due to the fact that it has more algorithmic processes to cycle-through at the “Implicate” level of reality.

Again, this is all just fun speculation (fun for me, anyway).

For more of my incessant blatherings on this, see my following post to Sculptor.
_______
seeds
Posts: 1011
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: What is gravity?

Post by seeds »

seeds wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:48 pm Also, while we’re at it, you said the following about my OP:
Sculptor wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:09 am This is like asking if people's appreciation of the Mona Lisa has something to do with the chemical bonding of titanium lead and linseed oil.
How so?
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:20 pm In reponse to “.is it possible that the greater the volume and complexity of the entangled morass of quantum waves that comprise a planet’s overall wavefunction is what determines the strength of that which we call a planet’s gravity?”

The reason I said that is that the strength of a "planet's gravity" is exactly determined by what can be directly observed, not by any minute details of physical properties.
The "strength" of gravity of a planet is EXACTLY determined by its mass. It is that simple.
In fact, in a very significant way the gravity of any object is its mass.
Again, keeping in mind that this is all just pure speculation on my part,...

...let me respond to that by creating a little thought experiment using my hologram illustration...

Image

First of all, because this thought experiment applies to certain quantum theories that suggest that consciousness may be involved in the collapse of the wavefunction,...

...then you have to imagine that the laser represents your own consciousness, and that the photographic plate represents the quantum realm (which is something that you cannot “directly observe”).

Now imagine shrinking yourself down to the point where you could stand on the die and it would appear to you as being as big as the earth.

In which case, other than your own body, the only things that you could “directly observe” would be the surface of the die, along with the key and the paperclip floating around in the outer space of this strange reality.

Next, imagine that the earth-sized die, and the moon-like key, and the asteroid-like paperclip had their own varying degrees of mass and gravity.

Now the point is that even though you can “directly observe” your own body, along with these three other separate (3-D) objects suspended in the spatial arena of this fanciful thought experiment,...

...it does not change the fact that it is the correlated patterns of information in the photographic plate that determines the unique characteristics and properties of the four objects.

And the further point is that if you were to completely remove your consciousness from this scenario...

(like switching off the laser)

...then all four objects...

(again, your body, die, key, and paperclip)

...would no longer appear as separate (3-D) phenomena suspended in a spatial arena, but would only exist in the (2-D) context of the patterns of information in the plate where they are no longer separate from each other (at least not in the same way they are separate from each other in their explicated forms).

Now as all of this is just a metaphor for the workings of the universe itself, then the ultimate question is: where is gravity and mass located in this deeper context of information if not simply being an aspect of the coding in the underlying script of reality?

Again, everyone needs to stop visualizing the question of gravity from the limited and “superficial” perspective of Bohm’s “Explicate Order” and, instead, try to immerse your mind in the deeper and more primal realm of Bohm’s “Implicate Order.”
_______
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 2229
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: What is gravity?

Post by Sculptor »

seeds wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:26 am
seeds wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:48 pm Also, while we’re at it, you said the following about my OP:
Sculptor wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:09 am This is like asking if people's appreciation of the Mona Lisa has something to do with the chemical bonding of titanium lead and linseed oil.
How so?
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:20 pm In reponse to “.is it possible that the greater the volume and complexity of the entangled morass of quantum waves that comprise a planet’s overall wavefunction is what determines the strength of that which we call a planet’s gravity?”

The reason I said that is that the strength of a "planet's gravity" is exactly determined by what can be directly observed, not by any minute details of physical properties.
The "strength" of gravity of a planet is EXACTLY determined by its mass. It is that simple.
In fact, in a very significant way the gravity of any object is its mass.
Again, keeping in mind that this is all just pure speculation on my part,...

...let me respond to that by creating a little thought experiment using my hologram illustration...

Image

First of all, because this thought experiment applies to certain quantum theories that suggest that consciousness may be involved in the collapse of the wavefunction,...

...then you have to imagine that the laser represents your own consciousness, and that the photographic plate represents the quantum realm (which is something that you cannot “directly observe”).

Now imagine shrinking yourself down to the point where you could stand on the die and it would appear to you as being as big as the earth.

In which case, other than your own body, the only things that you could “directly observe” would be the surface of the die, along with the key and the paperclip floating around in the outer space of this strange reality.

Next, imagine that the earth-sized die, and the moon-like key, and the asteroid-like paperclip had their own varying degrees of mass and gravity.

Now the point is that even though you can “directly observe” your own body, along with these three other separate (3-D) objects suspended in the spatial arena of this fanciful thought experiment,...

...it does not change the fact that it is the correlated patterns of information in the photographic plate that determines the unique characteristics and properties of the four objects.

And the further point is that if you were to completely remove your consciousness from this scenario...

(like switching off the laser)

...then all four objects...

(again, your body, die, key, and paperclip)

...would no longer appear as separate (3-D) phenomena suspended in a spatial arena, but would only exist in the (2-D) context of the patterns of information in the plate where they are no longer separate from each other (at least not in the same way they are separate from each other in their explicated forms).

Now as all of this is just a metaphor for the workings of the universe itself, then the ultimate question is: where is gravity and mass located in this deeper context of information if not simply being an aspect of the coding in the underlying script of reality?

Again, everyone needs to stop visualizing the question of gravity from the limited and “superficial” perspective of Bohm’s “Explicate Order” and, instead, try to immerse your mind in the deeper and more primal realm of Bohm’s “Implicate Order.”
_______
OMG.
I am 60. TIme is precious,
I'm never going to get that time back I took reading this.
nothing
Posts: 595
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:32 pm

Re: What is gravity?

Post by nothing »

Gravity is a motion expressed in/as s³/t³.

The three dimensions that are normally associated with space (3D) actually precedes all considerations of space and time.
This means that time, like space, also has the same three dimensions. The nature of the relationship between space and time
is that they are each multiplicative reciprocal aspects of motion.

s/t = v as velocity
t/s = e as energy
s/t x t/s = 1

Thus space and time are not two separate/autonomous things (or things at all, for that matter), they are one in/of reciprocity.

Gravity s³/t³ is an inward motion whose reciprocal is mass t³/s³.
The constituency of any body, having a corresponding "outward" mass,
also has a corresponding "inward" motion. This inward motion
is a property of both: the physical and metaphysical domains
of existence.

In reality, the only constituency of the physical universe is motion, thus all is measurable in units of the same (UoM).
If/when Western science corrects deficient π from 3.14159... to 4/√Φ as 3.1446055... Einstein's e=MC² is solvable:

π ≠ 3.14159... (approximation error)
π = 4/√Φ
π² = 16/Φ
16 = Φπ²
e = MC²
1 = Φ(π/4)²
_______________________________
wherein Φ is the golden ratio.

Light does not only have a speed, it has a constant "rate" which is directly in relation to the universal constant that is Φ. This "rate" is 1.
In essence, photons satisfy the condition s/t=1 thus have no mass (thus no gravity) whereas virtually any s/t≠1 condition is in some way constricted to the physical universe. This is any/all matter (atoms/particles) which are actually just particular configurations of motion(s), as again: the only constituency of the physical universe is motion, thus gravity is a kind of "field of motion".

The two present-day barriers of Western science are the egregious π approximation error (if only humanity knew) and the inability to comprehend scalar motion despite it being absolutely integral to the mechanics of (not only) the physical universe, but the metaphysical. A third barrier could be the inability to recognize there is a metaphysical dimension of the universe, however this is asking too much of materialistic science.
gaffo
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: What is gravity?

Post by gaffo »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:30 am
seeds wrote: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:37 pm ... gravity?
Gravity is not a thing or even an attribute. It is only an observed phenomena of entities which have momentum. All such entities accelerate towards each other, and that phenomenon is called gravity. If you are going to ask, what is gravity, you have to ask what is mometum--why do bodies remain in motion (at the same speed and direction) unless accelerated? And, since no entity is totally isolated, all entities are constantly accelerated.
Gravity is a Force, and it it depends upon MASS, not momentum.

Masses may have or may not have momentum defending upon their velocity. Momerntum is a force BTW also, and unlike mass.

and a stationary body of mass - with no momentum, will be produce and be effected by Gravity, just as a mass moving through space (i.e. momentum).

yes, the faster a body of mass moves through space the more massive and the higher its mass and gravitational field - (ie. it is more massive if it moves than if it just sits there, and other body;s will note the greater pull of gravity from the body if its moving vs stationary).


---but no, your momentum is wrong above - mass is the correct verbage/understanding here.
gaffo
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: What is gravity?

Post by gaffo »

Impenitent wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:57 pm would a magnet's strength on another planet vary with the size of the planet? would the chemical make up of said magnet be different?

did magnets react differently on the moon or in outer space?

just a thought...

-Imp
no AFAIK electromagnetic force is a constant and not effected by velocity - unlike a moving mass WRT to gravity.

not sure about WRt to temperature, near absolute zero atom's primary particles slow down, and so i would assume would any electromagnetic forces related to them would also - i assume as the temp goes to 0.0000000000001 kelvin, a masses' EM forces go down (as well as gravity)?
gaffo
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: What is gravity?

Post by gaffo »

uwot wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:38 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:28 pmMagnetism and gravity are 2 names for the same force.
So try this experiment. Stand on some bathroom scales. Does the dial move? Now step on a compass. Does the needle move?
lol
gaffo
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: What is gravity?

Post by gaffo »

Impenitent wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:47 pm
uwot wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:33 pm Impenitent, what the fuck are you doing asking serious questions all of a sudden? Meh. In order:
Impenitent wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:57 pmwould a magnet's strength on another planet vary with the size of the planet?
Well the honest answer is I don't know, having only ever been on one planet, but I would be surprised if a few million miles made a huge difference to the laws of physics. The assumption is that the rules are universal, so it is simply a matter that the more massive the planet, the close the magnet has to be to win.
Impenitent wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:57 pm would the chemical make up of said magnet be different?
Could, for example, aluminium be magnetic on Mars? Well never say never, but never.
Impenitent wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:57 pmdid magnets react differently on the moon or in outer space?
That's the test isn't it? Good question. I don't know the answer, but I really think if it were shown that magnets do weird shit in outer space we would have heard about it.
thanks, the conversation just struck me so I asked ...

I thought that the gravitational pull from larger planets was greater than that on Earth so I thought magnetism on the larger planets may differ accordingly...
um no. there is the Electromagnetic Force, Gravity, the Weak Force, and the Strong Force (the last two are related to the atomic nucliuos and radioactive decay. - when the weak force is not longer able to counteract the strong force, we have fission/radioactive elements - and why all elements after/from Bismuth - now we now Bismuth is a radioactive element - though half live is 1-percent of the universe's age), and why all heavier elements are not able to keep there nuclous - shit together, and eventually fly apart.

- this may in fact apply to the proton itself - to date we still do not know - 40 yrs now and counting - if so (proton decays - to someting/and a photon) - then all mater is radioactive and will eventually decay into energy.

though we are talking in timelines much longer than the lifetime to date of the universe.

Impenitent wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:47 pm if magnetism on the larger planet is different, perhaps a denser or "heavier" metal would be more magnetic...
Magnetism is a property of an element - not the mass of .

so say Lead, a heavy element is not magnetic - be it here on Earth or on Mars or on Jupter or in space.

Iron, a middle weight element is magnetic - be it here on Earth or on mars etc.........

Aluminum/Magnesium are light weight and are not magnetic -be they on earth mars........etc.........

all about the element in question - not were that brick of iron is in the universe.


Impenitent wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:47 pm perhaps if the magnet was far enough away from a gravitational source it would do weird stuff...
nope. EM force is a force outside and unrelated to gravity or position in space.

non-secquture.

Impenitent wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:47 pm a compass on the moon doesn't point north does it?
nope, the compass will not point north because the moon has not magnetic field.
Impenitent wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:47 pm (then again, north on the moon is different than north on the Earth isn't it?)
um, nope, "north is north" - be it on the moon earth or mars or where-ever.
gaffo
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: What is gravity?

Post by gaffo »

uwot wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:59 pm
seeds wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:10 pm...you are simply confirming my suggestion that there is yet a deeper explanation for the workings of gravity.
Well seeds, you know we're both on the same page with this. Neither of us is content with the purely mathematical description of reality.
math is overrated, ask any physicist about the math inside the event horizon.

you will get a blank stare and demand to leave the room.
Post Reply