The science of astrology.

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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uwot
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The science of astrology.

Post by uwot » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:09 pm

The basic premise that supports astrology is that the position of the stars when you were born has an effect on your personality. Of the four forces we know about, only electromagnetism and gravity are measurable over interstellar distances, but any effect they might have is dwarfed by the already negligible influence that lorries going past, or light bulbs being switched on would have. Nobody attributes their personality traits to such terrestrial factors; when was the last time that you heard anyone bless or blame their fortune because they were born next to a busy motorway with double decker bus rising?

Clearly the timing of your birth has nothing to do with what sort of freak you turn out to be. Except it does. I was looking up Relative Age Effect-basically you are more likely to do well academically if you were amongst the eldest in your class. It’s pretty much a straight line from September down to August. Similarly you are more likely to play international football at specific age levels the older you are. UEFA did a study which found that people born in January are more likely to play at those levels. Again, it’s more or less a straight line down to December. See here for stats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_age_effect
And that’s not all. I googled the title of this thread and found this: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -astrology

Who knows? Maybe those early astrologers noticed some similar patterns and attributed them to magic, just as superstitious ninnies and religious nuts have always done.

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Necromancer
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by Necromancer » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:49 pm

For a start, religious people do not take religion to be science and secondly astrology is the classical example of pseudoscience!

:D :D :D

Atla
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by Atla » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:08 pm

This is a taboo topic so I think it'll be deleted..

Those from Europe and the US, who haven't noticed that the Sun Signs from Western Astrology are totally real, are psychologically blind. Science ignores it completely and "rational", "skeptical" people don't believe it.

And on the other side are the lunatics who think that it has to do with the planets. Planets have magical power, and their conjunctions mean magical things, and so they are coming up with complex charts etc.

Both sides are clueless, this is another indicator that our species is doomed. Shows how psychologically blind we are in general, which helps elect the wrong people into power.

The Sun Signs are, of course, mainly caused by the four seasons. During the critical months of our foetal development, and shortly after birth, biological effects on the human body, caused by the seasons, are hardwired. A sensitive adult can experience some of these seasonal effects every year, just by paying attention.

Western Astrology doesn't work near the Equator and poles, is reversed on the Southern Hemisphere (probably isn't all that accurate there either), and the division into 12 is arbitrary.

Which is how I can guess the Sun Signs of people with 30-35% accuracy. According to random chance it should be around 8-10%. I have studied the signs extensively, extremely useful knowledge in our everyday lives, especially when combined with things like the MBTI. But we also have to see through all the sugar-coating about the signs.

uwot
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by uwot » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:39 pm

Necromancer wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:49 pm
For a start, religious people do not take religion to be science...
That depends on the religious person. I have nothing against religious people, most are perfectly pleasant people who have the intellectual integrity to accept that their belief is based on faith. But there is an increasingly virulent strain who use what they perceive to be 'scientific' arguments to support their claims. The 'irreducible complexity' of Michael Behe, or the Kalam cosmological argument spouted by William Lane Craig and our very own Mr Can, for example. There is a whole field of 'creation science'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_science
Necromancer wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:49 pm
...and secondly astrology is the classical example of pseudoscience!

:D :D :D
Or as I put it: Maybe those early astrologers noticed some similar patterns and attributed them to magic.

uwot
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by uwot » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:42 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:08 pm
This is a taboo topic so I think it'll be deleted..
Nah. The Mods are all Aquarians, it's not their style.

Science Fan
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by Science Fan » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:37 pm

How come one twin may die in the same battle while the other twin lives? Because this was determined by an astrological chart? For that matter, how come horoscopes never say, "You will die today," when we know that is the actual fate of many?

Astrology is bullshit.

uwot
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by uwot » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:01 pm

Science Fan wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:37 pm
How come one twin may die in the same battle while the other twin lives?
Ah well, Science Fan, the one thing know about twins is that they were not born at the same moment. Bearing in mind that our home planet careens through the zodiac at about 20 miles a second, who but the most subtle of auditor could provide a compelling account?
Science Fan wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:37 pm
Because this was determined by an astrological chart? For that matter, how come horoscopes never say, "You will die today," when we know that is the actual fate of many?
Well yeah, but assuming a life span of about 70 years, your chances of popping your clogs on any given day are about 25 000 to 1. The other 24 999 of us presumably need to be told what to do with the rest of our lives.
Science Fan wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:37 pm
Astrology is bullshit.
That would be my guess, but interestingly, the time of year in which a child is born demonstrably has some statistical influence on their future opportunities.

Dubious
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by Dubious » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:43 am

For myself, I don't believe we're completely exempt from the influences of the cosmos. Everything seems to operate according to some kind of paradigm or cyclical design and while it may not lead to a manifest destiny as preordained by astrology I think there are influences which may vitalize certain outcomes.

From what I recall, C.G. Jung rarely took on patients without considering their astrological profiles. Astrology is the art of putting oneself in tune with the forces of nature which move beyond the merely terrestrial; distance may make it more tenuous but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

I'm not willing to say that Astrology is bullshit; examining it doesn't enforce that conclusion.

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HexHammer
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by HexHammer » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:02 am

1 of the reasons why astrology is pure nonsense and babble, is that the astrologers hasn't taken account for star shifting, so that their predictions are off, NASA made an update for the star charts about ½ year ago.

uwot
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by uwot » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:08 am

Here's a couple of quotes from the sources cited. (I know no one bothers to read links; dunno why I bother including them. Anyway...)

"A 2006 study finds that relative age affects student performance and has long-lasting effects on life outcomes. The authors find that "the youngest members of each cohort score 4–12 percentiles lower than the oldest members in grade four and 2–9 percentiles lower in grade eight... data from Canada and the United States show that the youngest members of each cohort are even less likely to attend university."

"Some scientists noticed that schizophrenics were more likely than others to have February birthdays. Also, January and March birthdays. It wasn't a huge effect, but it was statistically significant nonetheless. An schizophrenia definitely affects your personality."

The point is that the time of year in which you were born does have a statistically significant chance of influencing your life opportunities and even your personality-which is more or less what astrologers claim.
However, there are also a number of environmental factors-length of day, weather, disease levels-none off which get mentioned in astrology. Instead astrologers attribute whatever variations in personality types they discern to the influence of heavenly bodies.
If scientists today can discover links between time and place of birth and personality, it is conceivable that ancient astrologers noticed the same things, but simply misattributed the cause.

Dubious
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by Dubious » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:33 am

Never discount spooky action at a distance! Who knows what all the Synchronicities are and how they interrelate.

uwot
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by uwot » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:44 pm

Dubious wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:33 am
Never discount spooky action at a distance!
No indeed, but it's a bit premature to attribute everything to that before exploring demonstrable and measurable variables.
Dubious wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:33 am
Who knows what all the Synchronicities are and how they interrelate.
No one yet, but there's a bunch of people on the case.

Dubious
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by Dubious » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:29 pm

Dubious wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:33 am
Never discount spooky action at a distance!
uwot wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:44 pm
No indeed, but it's a bit premature to attribute everything to that before exploring demonstrable and measurable variables.
I wouldn’t recommend it either.

Nevertheless, astrology seems somewhat mundane compared to theories the universe is an illusion as in a hologram or according to other quantum theories...beyond the ability of most science fiction writers to imagine. If the universe is proven to be an illusion by another illusion - let's call him Nullstein - then I’d bet there exist more “affinities” within IT than the realities we're complacent with.

uwot
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by uwot » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:48 am

Dubious wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:29 pm
...astrology seems somewhat mundane compared to theories the universe is an illusion as in a hologram or according to other quantum theories...
Frankly, whatever the truth about the cause of the phenomenal world, it makes the claims of astrology piffling.
Dubious wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:29 pm
If the universe is proven to be an illusion by another illusion - let's call him Nullstein - then I’d bet there exist more “affinities” within IT than the realities we're complacent with.
That's a mighty big if.

Dubious
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Re: The science of astrology.

Post by Dubious » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:09 pm

uwot wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:48 am
Dubious wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:29 pm
...astrology seems somewhat mundane compared to theories the universe is an illusion as in a hologram or according to other quantum theories...
Frankly, whatever the truth about the cause of the phenomenal world, it makes the claims of astrology piffling.
Dubious wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:29 pm
If the universe is proven to be an illusion by another illusion - let's call him Nullstein - then I’d bet there exist more “affinities” within IT than the realities we're complacent with.
That's a mighty big if.
Who knows and will we ever. The state the world is in now one would hope it is an illusion.

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