Stopping time

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Atla
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Re: Stopping time

Post by Atla » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:13 pm

uwot wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:02 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:38 pm
uwot wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:06 am
So if it's not how I described it, what is the measurement problem?
I already pointed you to a book...
And a wikipedia page:
Which lists 3 different thought experiments.
There is also the wikipedia entry on the measurement problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_problem which states: "The measurement problem in quantum mechanics is the problem of how (or whether) wave function collapse occurs. The inability to observe this process directly has given rise to different interpretations of quantum mechanics, and poses a key set of questions that each interpretation must answer." Which is exactly what I said it is.
No, it's not exactly what you said and the whole story is a huge topic beyond this one-sided description, the main implication and mistery was basically left out here. And what you "said" was like your 3rd or 4th guess in a row anyway.

Atla
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Re: Stopping time

Post by Atla » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:15 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:58 am
Atla wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:53 am
Dalek Prime wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:00 am
A caesium clock will decay at the same rate no matter how you stare at it, or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Zeno_effect
Blah blah blah. If Zeno's paradox is bullshit, why would I give two shits about bullshit on a quantum scale?
I don't think anyone forces you to, correct me if I'm wrong

uwot
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Re: Stopping time

Post by uwot » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:24 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:13 pm
...what you "said" was like your 3rd or 4th guess in a row anyway.
Oh? So what were the other 2 or 3?

gaffo
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Re: Stopping time

Post by gaffo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:19 am

Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:49 pm
Yeah these everyday things called space, time, causality, actions.. they don't really seem to exist in the quantum world at all, they are more like an apparent special case of the quantum world. So even gravity might not exist fundamentally, which might be why it can't be unified with the other forces.
note to all - my prior post as once - this site locked up at that time and posted my one post 4 times.

not my doing.

--

to continue, and to address Atia, my understanding is the opposite of yours! - lol.

So even gravity might not exist fundamentally, which might be why it can't be unified with the other forces


IMO gravity - is MORE fundemental than quantum mechanics - and why it "Don't fit".

-----------------

think of it this way.

the Black Hole's gravity is so strong that it "over-rides" space (for one cannot leave a BH's space if one is inside it), time (time "Almost stops - does not stop but infinately does so........forward forgression is noted - maybe (is) a part of the nature of time), energy too is "Walled off" from "our universe" (i.e. energy - light/radiation that for sure is seathing inside the event horizon of the BH.............is "Walled off" from us, we do not see it for it is not able to reach us for the gravity wall contains all those billions of suns inside the event horizon to reach us.

what is able to reach "our universe" from the "separate universe of the Black hole"?..................only one "Force"

Gravity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and so my view is opposite of yours, the nature of gravity if more fundemental than quantum physics - for ONLY gravity (and its effect - i.e. the effect of gravity is in no way lessened by it being from a source outside of "our universe" - not at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!) from a BH's gravity has full effect upon our universe.




quantum mechanics/physics (in vogue now for 50 yrs) is not god.

bet it and gravity, gravity is God!

................

there is a reality lightyears beryond our understanding (our limited mental natures may not be able to understand it ever.........) quantum physics offers no understanding of gravity, the latter is closer to "Reality" than the former IMO - due to my post above..................

no doubt there is "Something" under all this mess - that "thing"/"things" under energy, matter, gravity, quantum..............which we prob will never understand.

Atla
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Re: Stopping time

Post by Atla » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:53 am

I don't have a decided stance on gravity, which is why I wrote that it "might" be. Maybe it is maybe it isn't. But yes I'm more leaning towards that it's not fundamental.
gaffo wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:19 am
the Black Hole's gravity is so strong that it "over-rides" space (for one cannot leave a BH's space if one is inside it)
The way I understand it, this isn't how it works at all. Gravity IS the curvature of space. Space isn't overriden, space is the one that's infinitely curved.

The black hole isn't "walled off" from the rest of the universe, it's a part of it. It's just unreachable for us through classical means.

gaffo
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Re: Stopping time

Post by gaffo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:07 am

Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:53 am
Gravity IS the curvature of space. Space isn't overriden, space is the one that's infinitely curved.
it may be a matter of intepretation.

not sure.

what we do know is that Gravity "bends space" and at/inside the Event Horizon near the Singularity "Space is falling at and beyond the speed of light".

Space is not Gravity - but there is some sort of interaction.

Gravity is more fundemental though, for we still feel its effects from the singularity even though the space of that singularity is "outside" our universe.

i.e the space is outside our space, but the gravity related to it is not.

Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:53 am
The black hole isn't "walled off" from the rest of the universe, it's a part of it. It's just unreachable for us through classical means.
WRT to Time/Space and Energy (trillions of suns energies are still trapped after billions of years in Galactic BHs) these "forces" are indeed "Walled off" from us.

but not the Gravity of the same said BH.

thanks for reply BTW - welcome conversation.

Atla
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Re: Stopping time

Post by Atla » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:24 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:07 am
Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:53 am
Gravity IS the curvature of space. Space isn't overriden, space is the one that's infinitely curved.
it may be a matter of intepretation.

not sure.

what we do know is that Gravity "bends space" and at/inside the Event Horizon near the Singularity "Space is falling at and beyond the speed of light".

Space is not Gravity - but there is some sort of interaction.

Gravity is more fundemental though, for we still feel its effects from the singularity even though the space of that singularity is "outside" our universe.

i.e the space is outside our space, but the gravity related to it is not.

Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:53 am
The black hole isn't "walled off" from the rest of the universe, it's a part of it. It's just unreachable for us through classical means.
WRT to Time/Space and Energy (trillions of suns energies are still trapped after billions of years in Galactic BHs) these "forces" are indeed "Walled off" from us.

but not the Gravity of the same said BH.

thanks for reply BTW - welcome conversation.
Yeah these things can be interpreted in so many ways..

The way I understand it, gravity doesn't bend space, gravity IS the bent space. This kind of space is not a thing, so it doesn't fall.

Or alternatively, we can view gravity as a force, made of undiscovered hypothetical particles the gravitons, but then I'm not sure whether space as an actor is needed for anything.

I would put it this way:

Classically speaking the inside of the black hole is "walled off" from us, space is so much curved there that not even light can espace.

However gravity itself is more fundamental than that, which is why we can feel the effects of a black hole even here.

However the quantum world is even more fundamental than that and contains all the things above in the same one universe.

gaffo
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Re: Stopping time

Post by gaffo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:36 am

thanks for reply - you seem to know "Stuff" lol
Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:24 am


The way I understand it, gravity doesn't bend space, gravity IS the bent space.
interesting view. as you prob know i not a physicist.

not considered this mentality. worthy to think your way maybe.

i'll consider it as a layman.

Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:24 am
This kind of space is not a thing, so it doesn't fall.

i claimed "space falls" from the many documentaries on the matter, but your view above is interesting and worthy of thinking about.

i've not thought in this way myself.

i thank you for this.

Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:24 am
Or alternatively, we can view gravity as a force, made of undiscovered hypothetical particles the gravitons, but then I'm not sure whether space as an actor is needed for anything.
i know about graviton theory - not a fan, but of course not a physicist either so what do i know.

lol. (very little).

Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:24 am
I would put it this way:

Classically speaking the inside of the black hole is "walled off" from us, space is so much curved there that not even light can espace.

However gravity itself is more fundamental than that, which is why we can feel the effects of a black hole even here.
i concur.

Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:24 am
However the quantum world is even more fundamental than that and contains all the things above in the same one universe.

this i don't see. welcome why you view this as so.

I see quantum and Relitivity as "sort of reality" - former on the small lever the latter on the large - but neither or "true' and the other in the overall.

they contradict each other! so something is missing for sure in understanding the overall picture.

gaffo
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Re: Stopping time

Post by gaffo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:41 am

a few things we do know.

space, time and gravity are inerelated in some sort of way.

high gravity slows time/bends space.

matter (mass) also fit in the above somehow.

.......

beyond that ask a physicist lol.

gaffo
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Re: Stopping time

Post by gaffo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:49 am

sort of ranting here............but we do one more thing.

E+Mc2

so a little matter can be converted a lot of energy and a lot of energy can be converted to a tiny amount of mass.

so there is "A thing" underneath matter and energy.

a shared - same - thing.

whatever that "Thing" is.

maybe the same "thing" that is near/at the Singularity where convention concepts/understanding do not apply

or maybe there is even a "Thing" under even the mass/energy "thing" even more fudemental.

or even many even more fundemental "things" below and so on.

who knows. i've no doubt we mere mortals will never know IMO.

I think we can (may?) assume that there is a "thing" below even the "Thing" under matter/energy - which even HB are not able to reach.

that "Thing" is of course whatever the "Thing" was that created the Big Bang.

Atla
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Re: Stopping time

Post by Atla » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:06 am

I'm not a physicist either, and I'm quite unsure on this particular topic too. :) I'm just giving my current opinion. But then again physicists have major trouble with gravity too. No one knows for certain what it is and how fundamental it even is.

For example Tesla, arguably the greatest scientist of all time, said that Einstein gravity is pure bullshit. He talked about some kind of universal compression instead of gravity. Makes you wonder.
gaffo wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:36 am
this i don't see. welcome why you view this as so.

I see quantum and Relitivity as "sort of reality" - former on the small lever the latter on the large - but neither or "true' and the other in the overall.

they contradict each other! so something is missing for sure in understanding the overall picture.
Well apparently, quantum effects can totally ignore spacetime, they even ignore the speed of light. And theorethically everything is made of those little things, theorethically the whole world is quantum. Which is what freaked out Einstein the most, so he spent the last 25 years of his life trying to debunk QM, but he couldn't.

Atla
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Re: Stopping time

Post by Atla » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:21 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:49 am
sort of ranting here............but we do one more thing.

E+Mc2

so a little matter can be converted a lot of energy and a lot of energy can be converted to a tiny amount of mass.

so there is "A thing" underneath matter and energy.

a shared - same - thing.

whatever that "Thing" is.

maybe the same "thing" that is near/at the Singularity where convention concepts/understanding do not apply

or maybe there is even a "Thing" under even the mass/energy "thing" even more fudemental.

or even many even more fundemental "things" below and so on.

who knows. i've no doubt we mere mortals will never know IMO.

I think we can (may?) assume that there is a "thing" below even the "Thing" under matter/energy - which even HB are not able to reach.

that "Thing" is of course whatever the "Thing" was that created the Big Bang.
Well.. I don't think that energy-matter equivalency implies that there is a thing "underneath" them at all. The thing is not "underneath", the thing IS the matter and energy. Matter and energy are two.. umm.. forms of the thing, but also one and the same with it, parts of it. The thing is the universe itself.

And this Big Bang creation myth.. well, I found it much more simpler to assume that time simply goes in circle. So the Big Bang at the beginning of our universe and the Big Crunch at the end of our universe is the same moment in time. This is also a speculative myth but unless I see evidence to the contrary, I see no reason to believe this creatin-out-of-nothing rubbish.

uwot
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Re: Stopping time

Post by uwot » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:56 am

Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:06 am
For example Tesla, arguably the greatest scientist of all time, said that Einstein gravity is pure bullshit.
As it happens, Einstein's theory of general relativity is dualist. Here's how Einstein explained it:
"Since according to our present conceptions the elementary particles of matter are also, in their essence, nothing else than condensations of the electromagnetic field, our present view of the universe presents two realities which are completely separated from each other conceptually, although connected causally, namely, gravitational ether and electromagnetic field, or - as they might also be called - space and matter." http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk ... ether.html
The problem with any dualist theory is how do two different 'substances', mind/body, space/matter interact? There is nothing in relativity to suggest how matter warps space. The fact that the model is extremely accurate leads some physicists to believe it is true; others simply use the maths and don't really care if 'spacetime' is real.
Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:06 am
He talked about some kind of universal compression instead of gravity. Makes you wonder.
Funny you should say that; it's more or less how I describe it. p33-37 https://willijbouwman.blogspot.co.uk

Dalek Prime
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Re: Stopping time

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:19 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:15 pm
Dalek Prime wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:58 am
Blah blah blah. If Zeno's paradox is bullshit, why would I give two shits about bullshit on a quantum scale?
I don't think anyone forces you to, correct me if I'm wrong
Well, I won't argue with that.

gaffo
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Re: Stopping time

Post by gaffo » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:19 pm

thanks for conversation alta.

ya one does have to "take it in faith" about Big Bang. sort of like Religion of Science.

i do the former - though Atheist.

probably misplaced faith. ;-/.

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