What is the universe made of? II

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

uwot
Posts: 4812
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by uwot » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:29 am

Noax wrote:My two cents this time is barely that. I will comment mostly on the last two panels, but with the disclaimer that I'm no expert on accretion theory.
You and me both.
Noax wrote:There is a thread going around about how heavy and light things fall at the same pace. Consequently it would seem that hydrogen and all the heavier crap would form stars and planets with similar distributions of the elements. My understanding is that this is true:
It is, as Galileo showed, apocryphally by dropping different weights from the leaning tower of Pisa, but more realistically by systematically rolling balls down inclines. So yes, I actually know that to be false and will certainly weed that out in the next edit.
Noax wrote:There are natural (not locally created, at least not yet) heavy elements in the sun just as much as anywhere.
It is true that there are many different elements in the Sun, but I was trying to explain why it is overwhelmingly hydrogen. I think centrifugal forces might be a better explanation, but then maybe it doesn't need explaining.
Noax wrote:Point is, I think it is a mistake to state that lighter elements accelerated quickest. That makes no sense.
Point taken.
Noax wrote:About the whimper death: Our sun will go Nova, which is hardly a whimper, but is also hardly a supernova like the one that formed the crab nebula.
Yes, but I wasn't referring specifically to the Sun, there of plenty of stars smaller than the Sun which will eventually fade unspectacularly away. That's something I might need to make clearer.
Noax wrote:Does anybody know what the long term prospects of a planet like Jupiter are?
Better than Earth's, but still not good.

thedoc
Posts: 6473
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by thedoc » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:33 am

Noax wrote: About the whimper death: Our sun will go Nova, which is hardly a whimper, but is also hardly a supernova like the one that formed the crab nebula. Mars is the innermost planet that will survive the sun going Nova.
No, it is my understanding that the Sun isn't massive enough to go Nova but in about 5 billion years will swell to become a red giant and then contract into a white dwarf, but during the red giant stage will either swallow the Earth or cook it sterile.

User avatar
Noax
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:25 am

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by Noax » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:02 am

thedoc wrote:
Noax wrote: About the whimper death: Our sun will go Nova, which is hardly a whimper, but is also hardly a supernova like the one that formed the crab nebula. Mars is the innermost planet that will survive the sun going Nova.
No, it is my understanding that the Sun isn't massive enough to go Nova but in about 5 billion years will swell to become a red giant and then contract into a white dwarf, but during the red giant stage will either swallow the Earth or cook it sterile.
OK, I got that one wrong clearly. The term Nova is something that happens in rare cases, usually a binary star. So uwot's fizzle death is closer to the mark. Sure it gets big for a brief time, and whether Earth gets swallowed by the process or not is an open issue. I read that Earth may move further away as the sun grows to about where we are now. For Earth to do that, I think the gravity of the sun must diminish, meaning part of the red-giant stage involves shedding some significant mass.

User avatar
Noax
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:25 am

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by Noax » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:10 am

uwot wrote:It is true that there are many different elements in the Sun, but I was trying to explain why it is overwhelmingly hydrogen. I think centrifugal forces might be a better explanation, but then maybe it doesn't need explaining.
The surface of the sun is overwhelmingly hydrogen, as is the case with the gas giants. I imagine earth attracted a similar ratio, but all the smaller planets lacked the gravity to hold onto a significant hydrogen atmosphere, so it all kept getting pushed away, to be swallowed by the sun or by Jupiter I guess. If solar winds can push it further out, then I imagine most of it was blown outward, not inward.

User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by Greta » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:16 am

uwot, I again enjoyed your perspectives.

I like the idea of each particle being a different kind of ripple in the stuff of the universe. It makes sense and feels right, although the stuff itself has always been a mystery. What makes our ripples so interesting is their persistence, which allows them to build upon themselves rather than quickly dissipating like water ripples.

The latest is that, even if the Earth is enveloped by the Sun in 5 bill years, it might be burnt through and sterilised rather than evaporated because red giants' very outer layers are very thin. There's been a recent discovery of an exoplanet that's been through this process, which is basically a burnt-out husk ATM.

Then again, the thickness of the outer layers could slow the Earth's orbit and result in a spiral inwards.

thedoc
Posts: 6473
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by thedoc » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:04 am

Noax wrote:
thedoc wrote:
Noax wrote: About the whimper death: Our sun will go Nova, which is hardly a whimper, but is also hardly a supernova like the one that formed the crab nebula. Mars is the innermost planet that will survive the sun going Nova.
No, it is my understanding that the Sun isn't massive enough to go Nova but in about 5 billion years will swell to become a red giant and then contract into a white dwarf, but during the red giant stage will either swallow the Earth or cook it sterile.
OK, I got that one wrong clearly. The term Nova is something that happens in rare cases, usually a binary star. So uwot's fizzle death is closer to the mark. Sure it gets big for a brief time, and whether Earth gets swallowed by the process or not is an open issue. I read that Earth may move further away as the sun grows to about where we are now. For Earth to do that, I think the gravity of the sun must diminish, meaning part of the red-giant stage involves shedding some significant mass.
Yes the Sun will shed some mass in the process but if the Earth moves further out, then so will all the other planets, but by that time the Earth will be cooked sterile and the outer planets could be a lot smaller.

User avatar
Cerveny
Posts: 583
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:35 pm
Location: Czech Republic
Contact:

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by Cerveny » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:29 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Cerveny wrote:Let me repeat again: The Universe is made from condensing/crystallizing aether/physical space/vacuum. Elementary particles are certain structural defects in it. The Future is not prepared yet. The (quantum, live) Presence is phase border between (growing) solid History and the (obscure) Future:)
Your posts never fail to disappoint.

LOL
My opinion was formed by analyzing the helpless state of mainstream physics. Usage of logic, (common) sense and a deeper knowledge of physics and mathematics seems to be sufficient. Hopeless integration of physics "theories", mostly interpreted by laborers of physics, is painful for me. Quite new point of view at the reality is necessary:(

uwot
Posts: 4812
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by uwot » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:11 pm

Thanks for all the feedback, particularly pointing out the howler; that has now been put straight and more has been added. Please check it out and see what you think: http://willijbouwman.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... of_13.html (There. That should do it.)
Last edited by uwot on Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

uwot
Posts: 4812
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by uwot » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:36 pm

Greta wrote:uwot, I again enjoyed your perspectives.
Thank you.
Greta wrote:I like the idea of each particle being a different kind of ripple in the stuff of the universe.
Well, that's basically the idea behind quantum field theory.
Greta wrote:It makes sense and feels right, although the stuff itself has always been a mystery.

Actually, most physicists have a pretty good idea. I usually quote Nobel Prize winner Robert Laughlin at this point:
"It is ironic that Einstein's most creative work, the general theory of relativity, should boil down to conceptualizing space as a medium when his original premise was that no such medium existed [..] The word 'ether' has extremely negative connotations in theoretical physics because of its past association with opposition to relativity.” Laughlin says the resistance to aether: “is unfortunate because, stripped of these connotations, it rather nicely captures the way most physicists actually think about the vacuum…The modern concept of the vacuum of space, confirmed every day by experiment, is a relativistic ether. But we do not call it this because it is taboo."
As someone has already commented: "ether be damned."

I was quite pleased with myself for realising that if the universe is made of stuff that was created in the big bang, then there is no reason to think has stopped expanding, but like all good ideas, someone else had it first; it is essentially eternal inflation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_inflation
Greta wrote:What makes our ripples so interesting is their persistence, which allows them to build upon themselves rather than quickly dissipating like water ripples.
Not always. You might want to check out solitons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soliton
Greta wrote:The latest is that, even if the Earth is enveloped by the Sun in 5 bill years...
Yeah. Hope I don't live to see that.

uwot
Posts: 4812
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by uwot » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:39 pm

Cerveny wrote:Hopeless integration of physics "theories", mostly interpreted by laborers of physics, is painful for me.
Aw c'mon, Cerveny; they're doing their best.
Cerveny wrote: Quite new point of view at the reality is necessary:(
There's life in the old dog yet, I think.

User avatar
Noax
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:25 am

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by Noax » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:11 pm

uwot wrote:Thanks for all the feedback, particularly pointing out the howler; that has now been put straight and more has been added. Please check it out and see what you think: https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogI ... c=postname
That is a blogger link, not a blogspot link. I could not follow it (it asks me to sign up), but I followed the link in the OP which has changed content.

The electron jumping panel opens with "If an electron jumps the other way" leaving you looking for the panel where the electron jumped the first way, but I don't see that panel. Absorption has not yet been discussed by that panel.

uwot
Posts: 4812
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by uwot » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:34 pm

Noax wrote:That is a blogger link, not a blogspot link. I could not follow it (it asks me to sign up), but I followed the link in the OP which has changed content.
Whoops. I didn't sign out before I copied the link. This should do it http://willijbouwman.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... of_13.html
Noax wrote:The electron jumping panel opens with "If an electron jumps the other way" leaving you looking for the panel where the electron jumped the first way, but I don't see that panel. Absorption has not yet been discussed by that panel.
Actually, there were two pages that didn't load. Should be sorted now. Thanks for the hands up.

User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by Greta » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:41 pm

uwot wrote:Actually, most physicists have a pretty good idea. I usually quote Nobel Prize winner Robert Laughlin at this point:
"It is ironic that Einstein's most creative work, the general theory of relativity, should boil down to conceptualizing space as a medium when his original premise was that no such medium existed [..] The word 'ether' has extremely negative connotations in theoretical physics because of its past association with opposition to relativity.” Laughlin says the resistance to aether: “is unfortunate because, stripped of these connotations, it rather nicely captures the way most physicists actually think about the vacuum…The modern concept of the vacuum of space, confirmed every day by experiment, is a relativistic ether. But we do not call it this because it is taboo."
The quantum foam would seem more or less the same thing, sans the stigmatising name.
uwot wrote:
Greta wrote:What makes our ripples so interesting is their persistence, which allows them to build upon themselves rather than quickly dissipating like water ripples.
Not always. You might want to check out solitons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soliton
So, rather than intrinsic relative persistence of the universe's stuff, the formation of structures is simply a function of the number of ripples?
uwot wrote:
Greta wrote:The latest is that, even if the Earth is enveloped by the Sun in 5 bill years...
Yeah. Hope I don't live to see that.
No human will but AI might study it from the relative safety of Titan ... *cue Twilight Zone theme*

uwot
Posts: 4812
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by uwot » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:52 pm

Greta wrote:The quantum foam would seem more or less the same thing, sans the stigmatising name.
Hmm. Yes. Expanding bubbles in quantum foam. I like it!
Greta wrote:So, rather than intrinsic relative persistence of the universe's stuff, the formation of structures is simply a function of the number of ripples?
Well, 'material' structures are more yer whirlpools than ripples. It's a thing about quantum mechanics that if you take a quark out of it's 'symbiotic' relationship, it disappears in a bubble of quantum foam. (See? I'm getting the hang of it.)

User avatar
Cerveny
Posts: 583
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:35 pm
Location: Czech Republic
Contact:

Re: What is the universe made of? II

Post by Cerveny » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:56 pm

uwot wrote:
Cerveny wrote:Hopeless integration of physics "theories", mostly interpreted by laborers of physics, is painful for me.
Aw c'mon, Cerveny; they're doing their best.
I can see it, uwot, but isn't it terrible to "live" with so many unsolvable problems (singularities, lack of antimatter, dark matter, limited spectrum of elementary particles, limited spectrum of physical forces, limited dimensions, misunderstanding of quantum processes, generation of non-entropy, inability to quantize GTR...) The best ones have forgotten to ask "why" and "how":(

I certainly do not want to do any problem, you seem to be satisfied - please do not answer, I only do not understand...

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests