A law and a principle in the Science of Needs

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Arising_uk
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Re: A law and a principle in the Science of Needs

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The Voice of Time wrote:Of course I can.
How without examples? So far your stuff is pretty impenetrable, now that might be my fault but I think if you know what you are talking about then you should at least be able to explain it in slightly simpler terms.
Hey, I do appreciate you challenging me, but a sentence like that is just unreasonable. You are being very edge, it feels more and more personal instead of objective.
My apologies, it's not meant to be. It's that you've made claims upon a philosophy forum, i.e. a 'science' of needs, etc and as such I want to know how your 'science' can be studied and if it is a 'science' how it can be applied?
p.s.
It might just be an issue with translation.
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The Voice of Time
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Re: A law and a principle in the Science of Needs

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Arising_uk wrote:How without examples? So far your stuff is pretty impenetrable, now that might be my fault but I think if you know what you are talking about then you should at least be able to explain it in slightly simpler terms.
Okay, I'm gonna explain it in one sentence:

The science of needs studies whether, how and where something exists in time with certain properties, and the conditions for how to make it continue or stop doing it.

But that's just the scientific part, there's also the philosophical part which introduces a particular way of understanding needs, and which is necessary to fully understand it as "a science of needs", and not a science of something else.
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Arising_uk
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Re: A law and a principle in the Science of Needs

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The Voice of Time wrote:Okay, I'm gonna explain it in one sentence:

The science of needs studies whether, how and where something exists in time with certain properties, and the conditions for how to make it continue or stop doing it.
Okay, give me a simple example of this in action.
But that's just the scientific part, there's also the philosophical part which introduces a particular way of understanding needs, and which is necessary to fully understand it as "a science of needs", and not a science of something else.
Okay, give me an example of this understanding as applied to a need you've had.
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Re: A law and a principle in the Science of Needs

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The Voice of Time wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:So "Opusology", if it actually IS a word, suggests a study of works or collections of artists (usually musicians). How did you possibly get "need" from this?
I invented the word so that I have something to refer to.

Opus is latin and means "need" through the sentence "opus est" (it is needful, wanting; there is need of), check out latin dictionaries if you really care (I don't care, it's just a name). The opus you're talking about is a concept invented for historical reasons, and I really don't think that anybody who wants to know what opusology is, will really have a problem seperating the different uses of opus (if you take away the fact that I don't show up in google searches). The -ology ending is used to define a field, a discipline (bi-ology, ont-ology), a system of thought that can be taught and learned.

It is just a name. Arguments could be made for using other words, either from greek or latin, but I thought opus was the best word, because it's short and simple, like "biology".
I've only seen this for Latin to reference, "works", often as a collection of art, especially music. I even looked it up and only found an ablative case that uses your interpretation (ablative = irregular or not a normal use). "-ology" is any logic for something it describes. It derives from "log" and its variants meaning generally "to look" at, of, or 'on' something usually as models or symbols representing the actual object(s) of inquiry. So the "Opusology" is highly unusual. Since the utmost significance of one is through one's works, I can see why the ablative form of 'opus' was derived. But even contextually, it is still used to reference collective works of art rather than science. [see http://mymemory.translated.net/en/Latin ... h/opus-est.]
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The Voice of Time
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Re: A law and a principle in the Science of Needs

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Scott Mayers wrote:I've only seen this for Latin to reference...
I made it, I get to name it, simple as that. I like Opus, I'll stick to Opus, I'm not arguing latin with anyone.
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Re: A law and a principle in the Science of Needs

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Arising_uk wrote:
The Voice of Time wrote:Okay, I'm gonna explain it in one sentence:

The science of needs studies whether, how and where something exists in time with certain properties, and the conditions for how to make it continue or stop doing it.
Okay, give me a simple example of this in action.
The Voice of Time wrote:But that's just the scientific part, there's also the philosophical part which introduces a particular way of understanding needs, and which is necessary to fully understand it as "a science of needs", and not a science of something else.
Okay, give me an example of this understanding as applied to a need you've had.
I am on a far away island, far away from other people.

This island has all the basic supplies I need to survive. A variety of food sources, clean drinking water, and materials of reasonable quality for building a reasonably good habitat.

I have a book with me.

In it, I start to describe initially what I'm lacking. Because even though my resources are available on the island, I've yet to collect, store and/or prepare them. The way I describe what I'm lacking, is based upon what my body tells me that it lacks through ways that make me believe, partially or fully, that I need it. But it is also based upon what my mind tells me that it is lacking.

As a precondition for anything to be a need, it must also not be a method for satisfying another need. Meaning that a need cannot also be a solution.

It is also a precondition that any need be private and unique, and not subject to anything but the basic individual understanding of what it is that is needed, meaning the need cannot be truthfully described in language (a truth I learned from Wittgenstein btw).

Finally, there is a precondition that the need be independent of what else is needed. The need must stand out for itself, and, as a thought experiment, and all else being equal, it must be such that if all the other needs were gone, I would still consider this thing a need.

Now I start detailing all these needs. I find out that unless I get some food, I would attain a feeling of fatigue, which I do not want. And if the food is too boring, it will make me feel depressed, which I do not want. These are some examples of needs. Because language cannot adequately describe what is really needed, we'll abstract this reality and tag this as being about "decent food".

Now I have to select what is the most pressing, I have to analyse and find out which problem, which need, is either active and "talking loudest" for me to do something about it, or which need is the first upcoming. At this point, we're talking about things that we take for already being known, this is a mere modelling of the status of our needs.

The science of needs, comes into play, when we start finding out which conditions are necessary to achieve a lasting satisfaction of this need. A satisfaction that stays, makes the need be perpetually satisfied. To find out this, you would have to utilize other natural sciences first to figure out what you're dealing with, and then you can study what "certainties", what things of any particular quality, must be in place for this condition to be met. These "certainties" could be any configuartion of the natural world that makes this particular condition be met. The conditions, and the sets, are abstractions, they are not "real" things that we can talk about really, you can't name them in any way that makes sense, you can only define them for what they do, and how they differ from any other set or condition.

Now back to making it "simple", sry but there is no reason for talking about this if we don't have basic concepts on the table.

This need of "decent food" is really just, in fact, a condition itself! It is a condition for the machinery that is you and which makes you take influences and produce imperatives from them... in a way I'm saying the rest of world gives you an order, and you follow it, and the order is the need. That is, this top thing is what defines a person, you could say. So at the top is a "you", then it is the things we can call "proper needs", then there are anything which makes those proper needs "satisfied", and then there is the things that make certain that this satisfaction is perpetuated. It is a nice hierarchy in a way, with many siblings on every level (and as a side-note, there is no end to how deep the roots of the hierarchy can reach).

Now I think you want this to be sciency, so I'm not gonna talk about how you handle the information, because that's a bit of field of itself, but rather how you acquire it. Well you study time, and you study what is there, and how is it. You look at it, measure it, sense it, take note of it. If there is a situation you want to produce, and you know how, you can make it happen, and then have somebody take note of what makes this situation stop being the case, or in other words: this arrangement of nature (the situation), is no longer part of the present. It is a generic approach, you are not interested in finding out anything more specific that what simply triggers something to be in time in a particular configuration.

With the decent food, you can check how many types of trips you can make from your house into nature, and come back with what is necessary to maintain to satisfy your "decent food" issue, and then you can make those trips, and find out which trips, and under which conditions, will not be achieved. And for those that are achieved, you can ask yourself how long it will last, and what processes are involved in making it progress towards not being the case.

See, you are always after the ways of study, that will make it possible for you to have a predictable continuation of a satisfaction of a need. BUT, needs also change, and because of this, human beings will shift between different needs all the time. Some return periodically, and some are just there to stay for a moment. Therefore, we can also study what influences there are on the body that causes it to change its needs, and how often this happens, so as to predict when new needs arise and why. And I don't mean that you suddenly need to go to the toilet, that is a need you always have, it's just that it's satisfied most of them time.

No I mean instead when a person for instance acquire an affection for something or someone. Or in some way, gets convinced, that something has value in and of itself, and that it must therefore be continually, perpetually satisfied. By controlling ourselves we can avoid acquiring many such needs, and that helps us feeling more satisfied in life by making the task of satisfying ourselves smaller. But some we can't control. This person, I can tempt myself with tropical drugs from local plants or I can choose to become close to an item for instance (think Cast Away and the guy with the coconut friend), and this expands the range of things that make up what needs I have. (This principle here by the way, of reducing needs, I learned from studies into chinese zen buddhism).

In my little book, I can now describe how I can set up a routine, for psychological preparation, logistical solutions, and so forth, to solve this and other needs. I study myself to find out how I vary, and thereby prepare for how I might change over time, either back and forth or in some general direction, and I make a smooth process of making sure that all of my problems are solved and remain solved as I make predictable changes.

If you're not satisfied now by this example, I'm giving up. It takes too much time and energy for me to produce this, and give it the quality assurance that I want it to have, and so forth. But if anything was unclear, please feel free to ask questions that delve deeper on the subject, just don't ask me start over again with another totally different one. When we talk, we need a platform, a common ground we can discuss, or else we're wasting time debating the surface. This is that platform.
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Arising_uk
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Re: A law and a principle in the Science of Needs

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The Voice of Time wrote:...
If you're not satisfied now by this example, I'm giving up. It takes too much time and energy for me to produce this, and give it the quality assurance that I want it to have, and so forth. But if anything was unclear, please feel free to ask questions that delve deeper on the subject, just don't ask me start over again with another totally different one. When we talk, we need a platform, a common ground we can discuss, or else we're wasting time debating the surface. This is that platform.
What I asked you was for an example of how you've used this 'law' and principle and 'Science' in an actual situation in your life?
But I thank you for your effort and will attempt to understand what you've said but it'll take time as again it's just too wordy for me. Although by and large I can't understand why it all can't be solved by just asking 'What do you want?' and 'How will you know when you've got it?'
p.s.
Is part of your method like a TOTE system? That is Test Operate Test Exit, that is, once you have a need identified you have a set of criteria to say when it is satisfied, so you test, if not satisfied you do some operations that you think(hope) will bring you closer to satisfying the need, test again, not satisfied, new or modifeid operations, test, etc, until test gives satisfaction then exit.
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Re: A law and a principle in the Science of Needs

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Arising_uk wrote:What I asked you was for an example of how you've used this 'law' and principle and 'Science' in an actual situation in your life?
I have never done that because I wouldn't get anything from doing it, I don't have the capacity to gather enough information.
Arising_uk wrote:... why it all can't be solved by just asking 'What do you want?' and 'How will you know when you've got it?'
It is irrelevant whether you want it or not. I don't think I touched on this aspect yet, I chose to simplify it (yes you read right, this was the simple explanation), but two days ago I held a presentation in Norwegian talking partially about what I'm gonna tell you now, and there I delved deeper.

The needs that form part of a person can be understood in a special way:

Physical reactions (of any kind) will through systems conspire to keep certain objects in time at specific configurations and at specific periods. When these systems (we'll call it "systems" for short), interact with our information systems, they can become "recognized" by our body. The recognition is when they influence our abilities to reason, to think and organize information. To ourselves they become personally recognized, but by expressing them by giving them names and uttering those names, or in other ways allowing other people, other information systems, to refer to and talk about these systems, we can publicly recognize them, allowing organization for the purpose of these systems to happen across people.

To summarize with other words: your state of needing is a product of influences from nature that has no boundaries and no borders. And through information systems, natural information systems in our body and mind, we can be "compelled", or "forced" to focus on certain things, until they are satisfied.

Want therefore has nothing to do with it. You could be influenced in many different ways. Talking about "want" is a bit of psychologization. We humans do stuff all the time that has nothing to do with want, but we still do it. In fact, when you raise this comparison, you are really asking "what really is want?", because that's not a fixed question. To me "want" is a mere emotional relationship between the idea of a thing and a person, and although every time I need food I sometimes dream of somewhat better food than I already have, I often do not have this feeling, but just take what I have an eat it. I'm hungry, and I react on that, there is no room for a feel of "want" in-between.

Also, the second question there seems to suppose that you do not actually manage your own situation, but that you instead narrow yourself down to mere acquisition, and that is not very smart.

Lastly, the difference between these questions and the science of needs is that the science of needs is always objective. There is no guessing here, no asking for their opinions or what people think. The example I used was simplified for you, so you may have misunderstood for that reason (which is why simple answers never actually work for complicated problems, and why complicated answers usually mean more accurate answers), but you are not actually asking a person what their situation is, that person doesn't know, people never know their needs with real certainty. Instead you study what influences the person, find these systems, and you assess the situation. The person will of course have a sense of what is their need, but you will be the only one who can actually prove that the need is a need.

Good night.
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Re: A law and a principle in the Science of Needs

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Arising_uk wrote:Is part of your method like a TOTE system? That is Test Operate Test Exit, that is, once you have a need identified you have a set of criteria to say when it is satisfied, so you test, if not satisfied you do some operations that you think(hope) will bring you closer to satisfying the need, test again, not satisfied, new or modifeid operations, test, etc, until test gives satisfaction then exit.
No. Satisfaction is found based upon prior experiences, not of exhastively trying out new ways to satisfy. Although I guess you could do this, but doing that to a person seems unsafe at first thought, not a very nice idea.
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