Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:12 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote: A lame excuse. When you say "I find your thoughts...", you're just giving us YOUR opinions.

PhilX
So what? I'm at a loss why people think this is an argument as my opinion is pretty much always backed by an argument as to why it is a reasonable one. So I pointed out to you why what you posted was pretty much meaningless and not least because it was a logical contradiction, which you as usual blithely ignored and upon a philosophy forum of all places!

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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by JSS » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:52 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:For me the answer is yes as there appears to be evidence for it. But again for me the answer is no because we really don't know anything about it.

What about you?

PhilX
What they are calling "dark matter" and also "dark energy" certainly exist, even if they hadn't any evidence for them. They are vast clouds of ultra-minuscule EM pulses and waves that I refer to as "Affectance". In effect, they constitute a huge mass that is spread so thin that light passes through it quite easily, yet the combined mass is enormous.

When such clouds of affectance acquire an electric charge potential, they have "dark energy" and behave as stunningly vast charged see-through particles, positive or negative. That causes the typical repelling and attracting effects that can change the course of entire galaxies.

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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:11 am

JSS said:

"When such clouds of affectance acquire an electric charge potential, they have "dark energy" and behave as stunningly vast charged see-through particles, positive or negative. That causes the typical repelling and attracting effects that can change the course of entire galaxies."

Never heard of dark energy described as having an electric charge, only that it's accelerating the expansion of the universe. Also never heard of dark energy changing the course of galaxies, just their speed relative to one another. Can you cite any articles supporting your position?

PhilX

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Greta
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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:21 am

JSS wrote:What they are calling "dark matter" and also "dark energy" certainly exist, even if they hadn't any evidence for them. They are vast clouds of ultra-minuscule EM pulses and waves that I refer to as "Affectance". In effect, they constitute a huge mass that is spread so thin that light passes through it quite easily, yet the combined mass is enormous.

When such clouds of affectance acquire an electric charge potential, they have "dark energy" and behave as stunningly vast charged see-through particles, positive or negative. That causes the typical repelling and attracting effects that can change the course of entire galaxies.
Interesting idea that seems a bit to me like the dark entities are simply the same stuff as everything else, just exceptionally thinned out. Rather than "entities and the space between them" this idea would leave us with one massive dynamic field of energy we call "the universe" and in this field are constantly varying densities of energy and information.

I still wonder if the universe is just a cluster of galactic clusters rather than "everything". Maybe there are other "clusters of galactic" clusters as relatively distant as galactic clusters are from each other? No idea how we could find out, but once we had no way of observing what we do today.

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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by JSS » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:37 am

Greta wrote: Interesting idea that seems a bit to me like the dark entities are simply the same stuff as everything else, just exceptionally thinned out. Rather than "entities and the space between them" this idea would leave us with one massive dynamic field of energy we call "the universe" and in this field are constantly varying densities of energy and information.
Affectance Ontology uses that one field, "Affectance" to explain literally all laws of physics, all space, all time, all "forces", all psychology, sociology, economics ... everything. It is a huge field of study. And no magical anything required. All provable and has been emulated in a metaspace program to verify how and why particles form and have the charge effects they have. But before they form, when the field is too thin, the field behaves as "Dark Matter"/"Dark Energy".

Empty space is filled with very thin affectance (the EMR of every frequency, photons, CMB, and whatnot). The dark matter regions are merely more concentrated affectance, potentially with a small percentage of mass particles in the mix (extremely dense affectance).
Greta wrote:I still wonder if the universe is just a cluster of galactic clusters rather than "everything". Maybe there are other "clusters of galactic" clusters as relatively distant as galactic clusters are from each other? No idea how we could find out, but once we had no way of observing what we do today.
I have wondered if our perceivable universe is merely a "local universe" with perhaps another similar "universe cluster" an unimaginable distance away from this one, and another and another and another, sprinkled infinitely just as stars and galaxies appear to be in our one "local universe".

Since then I have come to doubt that scenario. I more suspect that the light from too distance galaxies started merely too far away, traveling through too much affectance to remain coherent and perceivable as anything but "background radiation".

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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:39 pm

JSS wrote:Affectance Ontology uses that one field, "Affectance" to explain literally all laws of physics, all space, all time, all "forces", all psychology, sociology, economics ... everything. It is a huge field of study. And no magical anything required. All provable and has been emulated in a metaspace program to verify how and why particles form and have the charge effects they have. But before they form, when the field is too thin, the field behaves as "Dark Matter"/"Dark Energy".

Empty space is filled with very thin affectance (the EMR of every frequency, photons, CMB, and whatnot). The dark matter regions are merely more concentrated affectance, potentially with a small percentage of mass particles in the mix (extremely dense affectance).
Who knows if it's real, but nice ideas that make intuitive sense in terms of relative densities. The space v matter dichotomy would seem unreal since it was found that space is not an empty vacuum but energetic.
JSS wrote:I have wondered if our perceivable universe is merely a "local universe" with perhaps another similar "universe cluster" an unimaginable distance away from this one, and another and another and another, sprinkled infinitely just as stars and galaxies appear to be in our one "local universe".

Since then I have come to doubt that scenario. I more suspect that the light from too distance galaxies started merely too far away, traveling through too much affectance to remain coherent and perceivable as anything but "background radiation".
It may be the case, but the distances involved are too great for us at present to check the idea.

Imagine if our universe is just one supercluster of galactic clusters and an equivalent entity was as relatively distant from us as the Milky Way is from its nearest galaxy, Andromeda. That would make it about 3,000 billion light years away (a bit over 30x the diameter of the universe). The universe's Stelliferous Era is expected to only last around 1,000 billion years. As you say, how stretched and diffuse would the energy be by the time it arrived here - if it arrived here? It would make the radio waves of the CMB seem like gamma rays by comparison.

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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by Cerveny » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:16 pm

As a "dark matter" substantially affects the motion of stars in galaxies, it is necessary to reckon with it. But I'm afraid that all the "dark matter" effect is rather caused by using an incorrect theory of gravitation :(

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Greta
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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:19 pm

Cerveny wrote:As a "dark matter" substantially affects the motion of stars in galaxies, it is necessary to reckon with it. But I'm afraid that all the "dark matter" effect is rather caused by using an incorrect theory of gravitation :(
It's definitely one of the options on the table.

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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by JSS » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:26 pm

Greta wrote: Who knows if it's real, but nice ideas that make intuitive sense in terms of relative densities. The space v matter dichotomy would seem unreal since it was found that space is not an empty vacuum but energetic.
The perfect question for an intelligent person to ask. And fortunately, unlike almost all other theories, this one can be communicated and even proven over the internet by common people as along as .. they can have confidence in logic.

If the person is a good programmer, he can additionally verify a great many things because a computer can emulate the principles on merely the most fundamental level, sit back, and watch what comes. From merely the principles (a specific equation for space), the emulation (not simulation) will begin to form particles of positive, negative, and/or neutral charge. At any stage, the program can be stopped so as to examine exactly WHY the negative particles are migrating away from each other and toward the positive particles that the programmer never programmed in. The cause of all of the sub-atomic particle interactions can be watched, step by step as they spontaneously, perfectly emulate exactly what science has reported seeing .. and beyond to what they cannot see due to measuring issues. It is like having your very own particle accelerator/collider.

The point being that both the theory and the computer testimony can be entirely done without having to take anyone's word nor ask for any experiment time on any multi-million dollar equipment.

Nullius in Verba comes home.
Greta wrote:Imagine if our universe is just one supercluster of galactic clusters and an equivalent entity was as relatively distant from us as the Milky Way is from its nearest galaxy, Andromeda. That would make it about 3,000 billion light years away (a bit over 30x the diameter of the universe). The universe's Stelliferous Era is expected to only last around 1,000 billion years. As you say, how stretched and diffuse would the energy be by the time it arrived here - if it arrived here? It would make the radio waves of the CMB seem like gamma rays by comparison.
Yes, exactly.

I have spent my time studying the subatomic, not the cosmic, so I can only speculate about many things "out there". But with rational reasoning and certainty of knowing what is happening below the particle level of physicality, one can speculate many things out there with a high degree of confidence (such as the extremely low probability of there having ever been a Big Bang).
Cerveny wrote:As a "dark matter" substantially affects the motion of stars in galaxies, it is necessary to reckon with it. But I'm afraid that all the "dark matter" effect is rather caused by using an incorrect theory of gravitation :(
That is certainly to be always considered, but I can tell you that what they are referring to absolutely MUST exist throughout the universe anyway. So even if they believe it for the wrong reason, they will be right about this one.

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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by Cerveny » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:08 pm

JSS wrote:
Greta wrote: ...
Cerveny wrote:As a "dark matter" substantially affects the motion of stars in galaxies, it is necessary to reckon with it. But I'm afraid that all the "dark matter" effect is rather caused by using an incorrect theory of gravitation :(
That is certainly to be always considered, but I can tell you that what they are referring to absolutely MUST exist throughout the universe anyway. So even if they believe it for the wrong reason, they will be right about this one.
I am not convinced about it. Appropriate model requires only to the motion of matter (stars) is somehow supported/shared by a common environment (physical space). The moving matter generates a sort of "gravity" magnetism - additive force... The (physical) space is pulled by moving matter... and conversely matter is carried by moving space. We can see a galaxy as some aether whirl toward the Future:) - physical space is not static...

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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:26 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:For me the answer is yes as there appears to be evidence for it. But again for me the answer is no because we really don't know anything about it.

What about you?

PhilX
I think the terms are just placeholding labels for concepts, as Leo has said before, and are thus malleable. What is a universe, really? If it's everything, then yes, concepts such as dark matter and energy are subsets, and not separate standalones.

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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by JSS » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:50 pm

Cerveny wrote:I am not convinced about it. Appropriate model requires only to the motion of matter (stars) is somehow supported/shared by a common environment (physical space). The moving matter generates a sort of "gravity" magnetism - additive force... The (physical) space is pulled by moving matter... and conversely matter is carried by moving space. We can see a galaxy as some aether whirl toward the Future:) - physical space is not static...
I think that I agree with you .. I think.

Space is an ocean of motion. At every point throughout space one can see stars and/or feel gravity, hence every point has photons and/or gravity within it (not to mention all of the other EMR types). Affectance cannot be escaped.

And perhaps you should not be convinced yet because you have been presented any proof yet.

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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by Cerveny » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:54 pm

JSS wrote:
Cerveny wrote:I am not convinced about it. Appropriate model requires only to the motion of matter (stars) is somehow supported/shared by a common environment (physical space). The moving matter generates a sort of "gravity" magnetism - additive force... The (physical) space is pulled by moving matter... and conversely matter is carried by moving space. We can see a galaxy as some aether whirl toward the Future:) - physical space is not static...
I think that I agree with you .. I think.

Space is an ocean of motion. At every point throughout space one can see stars and/or feel gravity, hence every point has photons and/or gravity within it (not to mention all of the other EMR types). Affectance cannot be escaped.

And perhaps you should not be convinced yet because you have been presented any proof yet.
Sorry, the logic and health sense should precede proofs. We need a finding of new model of the reality :(

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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by Greta » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:20 am

Cerveny wrote:As a "dark matter" substantially affects the motion of stars in galaxies, it is necessary to reckon with it. But I'm afraid that all the "dark matter" effect is rather caused by using an incorrect theory of gravitation :(
JSS wrote:That is certainly to be always considered, but I can tell you that what they are referring to absolutely MUST exist throughout the universe anyway. So even if they believe it for the wrong reason, they will be right about this one.
Just fixing the quotes error, Cerveny. That was JSS's reply, not mine. I only said that it's one of the options being seriously considered.

Still, it would not surprise is gravity behaved differently at the galactic level because that scale is so far beyond our ken - let alone the scale of the universe ... or beyond.

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Re: Do you count dark matter and dark energy as part of the universe?

Post by JSS » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:02 am

Cerveny wrote:
JSS wrote:And perhaps you should not be convinced yet because you have NOT been presented any proof yet.
Sorry, the logic and health sense should precede proofs. We need a finding of new model of the reality :(
Sorry, I just noticed that I left off the word "not" in that sentence. :oops:

"Logic and health"?? .. "health"??

I agree that definitional logic MUST precede any effort to empirically prove anything. Perceptions and presumptions are much too deceiving. If that is what you meant.

I have a new model, a new ontology: "Affectance Ontology" wherein the logic is undeniable (other than any mistakes I have made in wording). The reasoning presumes nothing of prior physics knowledge. It starts from scratch, assuming nothing. Then the empirical proof is more complicated but accomplished via emulation that demonstrates that particles will form in a certain way and size under specific conditions and behave exactly as science currently measures them to behave in all of the complex ways they do. It is a type of "post-proof".

I expect to be presenting here if I see that anyone here would actually be interested and willing to rationally scrutinize it for me.

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