Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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HexHammer
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by HexHammer » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:45 pm

henry quirk wrote:Cops may start with a hunch (based on the information available to them at the time) but they'll never make an arrest stick without evidence in keeping with the crime.

Scientists theorize (based on the information available to them at the time) and experiment (look for evidence) to support or discount those theories.

My hunch, my theory, (based on what’s available to me now) is there is no such thing as reincarnation or reincarnated information.

I await evidence my hunch is wrong.
So cops only arrest people? ..that's new to me. I thought they also brought in people for questioning, or searching for evidence.

No, sometimes they have to start from scratch, when their previous theories or laws doesn't make sense, hence the term "invention" and "pioneering".

I'm sure you know the term "black hole" and Steve Hawkings, he said that information is preserved when an astronaut falls into a black hole, why shouldn't information also be preserved at death? ..maybe not all of it, but partially?

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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Lev Muishkin » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:49 pm

therammo wrote:If we live in a multiverse that indicates eternal inflation, does it mean we actually live over and over again the same life?

Sorry if it was hard to understand or just bad grammar, english is not my main language.

Greetings
We are on a balloon that is inflating. Do balloons live again? I don't know why you are asking this question.
Hurry up! You balloon will burst one day and that will be the end of you.
So stop dreaming and start living.
Last edited by Lev Muishkin on Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Lev Muishkin » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:04 pm

The reason I stopped by this thread is because of two reason. I thought the OP was about Nietzsche, and his notion of the Eternal Recurrence(ER), and because in the USA it is Groundhog Day.

Groundhog Day (the film) is the best explanation of the meaning of the ER.
Nietzsche was not a spiritualist, mystic or theist. He did not believe in any kind of re-incarnation, soul, or eternity.
The nut-case brigade often seize on the ER as some sort of support for a wacky theory of eternal life, or re-incarnation. This is a total misconception.

The whole of the idea of ER can be encapsulated in a single idea: Live your life as if you did so with maximal knowledge. In the film Groundhog Day, Bill Murray lives a day again and again until he gets it right; flawless.
Nietzsche uses ER to demands that we do not live life, like a pathetic Christian as if it were some sort of rehearsal. There is no heaven, no reward in Nietzsche's world, and when we live it had better be done right, as if we had to face the day eternally, as if we had to endlessly repeat that life the same way. He asks simply would you live your life again repeating the same dumb mistakes again and again?
No you must live your life the best you can.
There is nothing more to the ER.

Gee
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Gee » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:23 pm

Hi All;

I agree that the multiverse thing never made sense; universe means all. So there is one Universe. I have seen no evidence of an eternal recurrence, and it does not make sense. But I can see the philosophical reasoning that we should try to live each day as well as we can.

But reincarnation is a different matter. It is not really an eternal recurrence, and it does not necessarily have to follow religious doctrines such as karma, as they are simply proposed explanations to validate the purpose of reincarnation. They are not scientifically determined explanations.

There is one study that I know of that has researched reincarnation, and that is the study conducted by Dr. Ian Stevenson at the University of Virginia. His work has been peer reviewed, and although many people disagree with his findings, no one has been able to shoot down his evidence because he was meticulous in his methodology while doing his research.

You can look him up in Wiki, but the last time I checked, they had his, admittedly, least convincing case, but did not have any of his stronger cases in the article. Clearly, someone rewrote that Wiki article with bias. You can find his work on YouTube, or go straight to the source at the University of Virginia, where his books are available for sale and articles are available for free.

http://www.medicine.virginia.edu/clinic ... /home-page

After reviewing his work, I have determined that reincarnation can happen. Does that mean that it always does happen? No. But it can, and I suspect that it happens more than we realize. All of life consumes life, then regenerates life, so this idea is not really as unusual or exceptional as people like to pretend. It is only unusual with regard to Western religion and the ideas of heaven and hell.

Gee

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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Lev Muishkin » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:55 pm

Gee wrote:Hi All;

I agree that the multiverse thing never made sense; universe means all. So there is one Universe. I have seen no evidence of an eternal recurrence, and it does not make sense. But I can see the philosophical reasoning that we should try to live each day as well as we can.

But reincarnation is a different matter. It is not really an eternal recurrence,ll.

Gee
You are conflating two distinct ideas.
please see my post above.

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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Lev Muishkin » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:05 pm

A perfect example of when universities run courses by popular demand, buy paying students, rather than by academic vigour.
When you interview a Burmese child about the local superstition you need to do more than just describe what is their claimed experience. You need to examine this in the light of anthropological and psychological studies. Not just repeat shit as if it was true.

Accounts of re-incarnation would be easy enough to verify were they true. And in every single case where such investigations have been made to prove re-incarnation the results have shown false.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:16 pm

"So cops only arrest people?"

I never said that.

#

"Hawkings...said that information is preserved when an astronaut falls into a black hole, why shouldn't information also be preserved at death?"

How are the relativistic effects associated with an escape velocity exceeding c anything like the death of an individual?

In the first case, information is preserved cuz -- relatively speaking -- time stops.

In the second case, on-going organic/chemical/electrical processes are interrupted, and the information caught up in those processes is lost.

Not even apples and oranges...more like apples and bricks.

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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Gee » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:51 pm

Lev Muishkin wrote:
Gee wrote:Hi All;

I agree that the multiverse thing never made sense; universe means all. So there is one Universe. I have seen no evidence of an eternal recurrence, and it does not make sense. But I can see the philosophical reasoning that we should try to live each day as well as we can.

But reincarnation is a different matter. It is not really an eternal recurrence,ll.

Gee
You are conflating two distinct ideas.
please see my post above.
Lev Muishkin;

You said, "No you must live your life the best you can.
There is nothing more to the ER."

I said, "But I can see the philosophical reasoning that we should try to live each day as well as we can."

There is no conflating of issues. The comments about reincarnation were directed to another poster.

Gee

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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Gee » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:53 pm

Lev Muishkin wrote:
Accounts of re-incarnation would be easy enough to verify were they true. And in every single case where such investigations have been made to prove re-incarnation the results have shown false.
This is a damned lie.

Gee

HexHammer
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Re:

Post by HexHammer » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:04 pm

henry quirk wrote:"So cops only arrest people?"

I never said that.

#

"Hawkings...said that information is preserved when an astronaut falls into a black hole, why shouldn't information also be preserved at death?"

How are the relativistic effects associated with an escape velocity exceeding c anything like the death of an individual?

In the first case, information is preserved cuz -- relatively speaking -- time stops.

In the second case, on-going organic/chemical/electrical processes are interrupted, and the information caught up in those processes is lost.

Not even apples and oranges...more like apples and bricks.
Sorry I am wrong about the cop part, I read wrong.

We may exist in may ways, on many lvls, I theorize that our electrical impulses may be preserved somehow. If we can see ourselves in a reflection of water, heat and a mirror, then why shouldn't our electrical impulses also not be able to be preserved as a reflection or an echo if you will.

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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Lev Muishkin » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:44 pm

Gee wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:
Accounts of re-incarnation would be easy enough to verify were they true. And in every single case where such investigations have been made to prove re-incarnation the results have shown false.
This is a damned lie.

Gee
"this is a damned lie" is not an argument. It is just childish foot stamping.

You are at liberty to furnish the thread with evidence if you wish.

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Lev Muishkin
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Re:

Post by Lev Muishkin » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:48 pm

henry quirk wrote:"So cops only arrest people?"

I never said that.

#

"Hawkings...said that information is preserved when an astronaut falls into a black hole, why shouldn't information also be preserved at death?"

How are the relativistic effects associated with an escape velocity exceeding c anything like the death of an individual?

In the first case, information is preserved cuz -- relatively speaking -- time stops.

In the second case, on-going organic/chemical/electrical processes are interrupted, and the information caught up in those processes is lost.

Not even apples and oranges...more like apples and bricks.
The 'information" that comprises the human individual is coded in a lifetime's structuration of cerebral matter. When you die that matter gets corrupted. Without that structure, every thing you were disappears. Entering into a black hole is no different - the matter of which you are comprised looses its unique structure, and thuse the information that is you is crushed into meaningless, structureless material.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:53 pm

"...the matter of which you are comprised looses its unique structure..."

Yeah, I thought about that (tidal forces ripping matter apart then all of it being crushed into a degenerate state) after I posted...wasn't worth the trouble to amend myself.

*shrug*

HexHammer
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Re: Re:

Post by HexHammer » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:35 pm

Lev Muishkin wrote:The 'information" that comprises the human individual is coded in a lifetime's structuration of cerebral matter. When you die that matter gets corrupted. Without that structure, every thing you were disappears. Entering into a black hole is no different - the matter of which you are comprised looses its unique structure, and thuse the information that is you is crushed into meaningless, structureless material.
That's strange, my good Wiggie now you contradict Hawking.

Gee
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Gee » Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:09 pm

Lev Muishkin wrote:
Gee wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote: Accounts of re-incarnation would be easy enough to verify were they true. And in every single case where such investigations have been made to prove re-incarnation the results have shown false.
This is a damned lie.

Gee
"this is a damned lie" is not an argument. It is just childish foot stamping.

You are at liberty to furnish the thread with evidence if you wish.
Well, Lev, your above statement made me smile. I can't remember the last time someone called me "childish", but apparently you think so. (chuckle) You are correct in that I did not make an argument, but I thought it unnecessary. Just pointing out the lie should have caused you to reevaluate your statement. But if you want an argument, I can provide one.

Please consider that Philosophy is the study of what we can know, and how we can know it -- or what is true. You stated that in "every single case" of investigations regarding reincarnation, the results have shown it to be false. So the question is, How can you possibly know this? You would have to know about "every single case". That would take more than a lifetime of study, so I seriously doubt that this is true. Then one must consider that if you knew about "every single case", then you would have to already know about Dr. Stevenson's work. So you would have to know that Dr. Stevenson found evidence of reincarnation.

In order to dismiss the evidence, you would have to base your knowledge on something other than evidence. So it is my thought that you base your knowledge on assumption, opinion, and belief. This is a common problem with religious people, but this is the Science forum, not the Religion forum, and I did not think you were religious. Hence, your statement is a lie.

In the future, you may want to consider qualifying such grandiose statements with something like, "in my opinion", or "as far as I know", or "to my knowledge", instead of stating something as fact, that is not fact.

Gee

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