Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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therammo
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Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by therammo » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:50 pm

If we live in a multiverse that indicates eternal inflation, does it mean we actually live over and over again the same life?

Do all matter and particles that makes ''me'' me, fall in the same chronological order which will indicate that I am indeed a product of eternal and infinite energy?

This frightens me, mostly because we are not able to control whether we actually want to exist or not. We are just a product of eternal inflation that always existed and will continue to exist for eternity, thus making us eternal beings.

Another issue I have is, if we live in multiverse where all possible outcomes are actually possible, then it means that there are infinite amount copies of me, and some copies are presidents, doctors, criminals etc.

Now, with that said, what are your opinion on , me living again after I die on this earth? Will I eventually be born again and live same life again, or will I cease to exist, because there are infinite number of ''me'' out there, so it wouldn't break any mathematic number?

Sorry if it was hard to understand or just bad grammar, english is not my main language.

Greetings

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:47 pm

Nietzsche's idea is based on a very basic error in logic that will be apparent if we think carefully at all.

An "Eternal Return" can only happen if two conditions apply:

1. An infinite span of time in which for events to recur, and

2. A finite number of variables capable of recurring.

If either of these two conditions is not applicable, his supposition becomes at least unnecessary, but more accurately, it becomes so mathematically improbable as to be (rationally) impossible.

Now #1 is possible, though we have no confirmation of it. It's perhaps even probable. So let's grant it. But #2 is certainly not applicable.

For supposing #1 to be true, there are an infinite number of universes or possible combinations of events -- in the dimension of time, certainly, as is obvious from the word "infinite," but then very likely in the dimension of space as well. So time and space are probably both of infinite largeness, if #1 is true. So far so good?

But if there is infinite time, infinite space, or both, then by definition there are also infinite variables within those dimensions. There are, in short, an infinite number of ways the universe could be.

Infinity is an odd thing. As the "Hilbert's Hotel" thought experiment shows, the rules of logic and mathematics simply dissolve when we try to use it to describe physical reality. And one of the odd effects that follows for the "Eternal Return," is that there is no longer any reason to suppose the universe must "return" to any state in which it has been already, no matter how long time persists.

And why is that? It's because no matter how much time there is, there are always an infinite number of other ways for things to be or become. So the way we are is one state out of an infinite number of possibilities, and the chances against any such state occurring are quite simply -- infinite!

In short, there is no "Eternal Return" if the universe is actually infinite. And postulating additional "bigness" does not make it any more likely, but rather infinitely less likely.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:50 pm

You will not reincarnate and there's only one universe.

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HexHammer
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by HexHammer » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:17 pm

No, please stop asking retarded questions!

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:18 pm

Straight to the point, as usual, Henry! :lol:

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HexHammer
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Re:

Post by HexHammer » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:19 pm

henry quirk wrote:You will not reincarnate and there's only one universe.
How do you know?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:23 pm

I've got the first bit of this one, Henry. :)

"Universe", by definition, means "everything." Analytically, there can be many planets, solar systems, galaxies, etc., but they all fit into "universe." It's the comprehensive term.

As for reincarnation...I'll let Henry take a swing.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:29 pm

"How do you know?"

I see no *evidence of either, so I surmise that both are hooey.

I could be wrong, but till proven wrong, I say: You will not reincarnate and there's only one universe.

#

Straight to the point, as usual, Henry!

HA!









*if folks reincarnate, where are they? I don't know any reincarnated folks. if our universe is just a lobe in a larger multiverse, where's the proof? some math sez the multiverse is possible, but possibility is not certainty or necessity.

*shrug*

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:36 pm

I'd add that "reincarnation" is part of a metaphysical package that requires other beliefs, such as the circularity of time (to allow for indefinite numbers of recursions) and some sort of obligatory, objective moral index (like "karma") to somehow be "written into" the fabric of the universe.

That might not be utterly impossible, but it would certainly require a complex religio-scientific explanation: "scientific" because it would have to locate these features on our map of the natural world, but "religious" as well because the explanation required would have to transcend this physical world in order to account for the physical world. For analytically speaking, an "explanation" can't be smaller, or operate only within, the thing it explains. (It has to be capable of accounting for the laws and rationality of science itself, or it's not an "explanation" capable of the name.)

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henry quirk
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:39 pm

Yeah, what Mannie said.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:46 pm

You kill me, Henry. :lol:

The ultimate straight-shooter, and never fails to entertain.

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henry quirk
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as thomas said, 'let me finger his hole'...ha!

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:04 pm

Yep, I'm adorable... ;)


A little more...

If Joe tells me he has a ham sandwich in a box, it cost me nuthin' to (provisionally) accept his claim. Ham and bread exist and I've used them to make my own ham sandwiches. That is, Joe's claim is mundane and ordinary.

Now, if Joe tells me he has a ham sandwich in a box and that sandwich can -- all on its lonesome -- sing, dance, and tell jokes, well: Joe's gonna have to open that box up. I wanna see the sandwich sing, dance, and tell jokes. I wanna examine it for micro-robotics and a tiny speaker. Joe's claim, in this case, is extraordinary. Such a thing -- a singing, dancing, joke-cracking, ham sandwich -- seems to be outside (a violation of) the way the world works.

That is: an extraordinary claim requires equally extraordinary evidence.

I see no such evidence for reincarnation or the multiverse.
Last edited by henry quirk on Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:20 pm

Agreed.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:30 pm

Gotta love it when theist and atheist align.

thedoc
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Re:

Post by thedoc » Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:01 pm

henry quirk wrote:Gotta love it when theist and atheist align.

It happens more than you might realize, it's just that the ones who don't align, make a lot more noise.

But they probably don't understand what they think they know.

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