Earth at the center of the Universe?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:05 pm

thedoc wrote:It depends on your frame of reference. We are the only culture that we are aware of, so in that sense we are the center. We have the only religions that we are aware of, so in that sense we are the center. Physically we are on the outskirts of an insignificant Galaxy in the midst of many other Galaxies, so in that sense we are not the center, or in the Big Bang theory everywhere is the center. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
I hear you Doc.

I for one can only see, that to answer the question the most truthfully, can only be achieved, from the absolute universal perspective that was once devoid of humanity. When I apply human concepts of it, I'm careful to remove as much of humanities bias as is possible. As it surely seems, at least to me, that it is humanity that is the child of the universe, not that the universe is the child of humanity. While many would knock the conceptualization of the universe by humanity, believing it incomplete, I would argue that the conceptualization of the parent by the child cannot be that far off, as the child is the progeny of that parent, thus it is made up of the parts of the parent. The better we know ourselves, the better we know the parent. The problem is that many deny knowing themselves, because they fear admitting the truth, as the peer pressure would be unbearable, such that they burry the truth of themselves through denial. I see that knowing ones self can only ever set one free, as the truth always does that. The ones denying themselves the most are the most insane of the lot of us. They also have more of a need of creating the most fantastical reasons for things, more steeped in mysticism.

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by thedoc » Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:50 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
thedoc wrote:It depends on your frame of reference. We are the only culture that we are aware of, so in that sense we are the center. We have the only religions that we are aware of, so in that sense we are the center. Physically we are on the outskirts of an insignificant Galaxy in the midst of many other Galaxies, so in that sense we are not the center, or in the Big Bang theory everywhere is the center. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
I hear you Doc.

I for one can only see, that to answer the question the most truthfully, can only be achieved, from the absolute universal perspective that was once devoid of humanity. When I apply human concepts of it, I'm careful to remove as much of humanities bias as is possible. As it surely seems, at least to me, that it is humanity that is the child of the universe, not that the universe is the child of humanity. While many would knock the conceptualization of the universe by humanity, believing it incomplete, I would argue that the conceptualization of the parent by the child cannot be that far off, as the child is the progeny of that parent, thus it is made up of the parts of the parent. The better we know ourselves, the better we know the parent. The problem is that many deny knowing themselves, because they fear admitting the truth, as the peer pressure would be unbearable, such that they burry the truth of themselves through denial. I see that knowing ones self can only ever set one free, as the truth always does that. The ones denying themselves the most are the most insane of the lot of us. They also have more of a need of creating the most fantastical reasons for things, more steeped in mysticism.
We must travel in different circles, since most of the people I talk to are aware that the atoms in our body were once inside a star that blew up, usually after I tell them. And the Protons, Neutrons and Electrons that make up these atoms have been in existence since shortly after the Big Bang, and they have just recombine through fusion or fission to form new elements. The only possible exception is some of the hydrogen that is part of us may have been floating in interstellar space since the beginning, every molecule of water in our body has 2 hydrogen atoms. Something that was pointed out recently is that the proportion of elements in our body is almost the same as the proportion of elements in the Universe.

If you are referring to our nature, (how we act), then I would agree that many people try to deny their real nature and substitute some artificial standard to describe their nature. Whether it's from politics, religion, or philosophy, it's not really how people feel they should act, but society has come up with many restrictions that try to deny how people really are, hurting others who do something to annoy you is frowned on. Also there is a lot of variability among people and how they believe they should treat each other, the problem comes when they try to impose their standards on other people who don't believe the same way.

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by Obvious Leo » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:09 pm

thedoc wrote: And the Protons, Neutrons and Electrons that make up these atoms have been in existence since shortly after the Big Bang
This is sort of true but not precisely so. Strictly speaking the stable sub-atomic particles which are currently being used as models to define atomic structure did not evolve until some 380,000 years after the BB and it is simply unknowable if the particles of today are the same as those of this epoch. Prior to this time there would certainly have been particles of some description which ultimately gave rise to these more stable forms but in such a high energy environment as this early phase of our universe it is literally impossible to guess what such particles might have been.

This is not intended as a refutation of your more general point though, doc, but rather a confirmation of it. Human beings are just little bits of matter/energy which have been organised into a highly complex emergent structure according to processes which are reasonably well understood. The emergent form of this energy will inevitably succumb to the second law of thermodynamics but the energy which encoded for it is immortal according to the first law of thermodynamics. It must invariably be re-encoded eventually back into complex informational structures. That's how reality works and the universe continues to evolve.

"We are stardust, we are golden, we are billion year old carbon
And we got to get ourselves back to the garden".....Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young

"Memento, homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris"....Anon
(Remember, man, that thou art dust, and unto dust thou shalt return)

"All things originate from one another and vanish into one another according to necessity, and in accordance with the order of time"
Anaximander.....On Nature

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:24 pm

thedoc wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
thedoc wrote:It depends on your frame of reference. We are the only culture that we are aware of, so in that sense we are the center. We have the only religions that we are aware of, so in that sense we are the center. Physically we are on the outskirts of an insignificant Galaxy in the midst of many other Galaxies, so in that sense we are not the center, or in the Big Bang theory everywhere is the center. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
I hear you Doc.

I for one can only see, that to answer the question the most truthfully, can only be achieved, from the absolute universal perspective that was once devoid of humanity. When I apply human concepts of it, I'm careful to remove as much of humanities bias as is possible. As it surely seems, at least to me, that it is humanity that is the child of the universe, not that the universe is the child of humanity. While many would knock the conceptualization of the universe by humanity, believing it incomplete, I would argue that the conceptualization of the parent by the child cannot be that far off, as the child is the progeny of that parent, thus it is made up of the parts of the parent. The better we know ourselves, the better we know the parent. The problem is that many deny knowing themselves, because they fear admitting the truth, as the peer pressure would be unbearable, such that they burry the truth of themselves through denial. I see that knowing ones self can only ever set one free, as the truth always does that. The ones denying themselves the most are the most insane of the lot of us. They also have more of a need of creating the most fantastical reasons for things, more steeped in mysticism.
We must travel in different circles, since most of the people I talk to are aware that the atoms in our body were once inside a star that blew up, usually after I tell them. And the Protons, Neutrons and Electrons that make up these atoms have been in existence since shortly after the Big Bang, and they have just recombine through fusion or fission to form new elements. The only possible exception is some of the hydrogen that is part of us may have been floating in interstellar space since the beginning, every molecule of water in our body has 2 hydrogen atoms. Something that was pointed out recently is that the proportion of elements in our body is almost the same as the proportion of elements in the Universe.

If you are referring to our nature, (how we act), then I would agree that many people try to deny their real nature and substitute some artificial standard to describe their nature. Whether it's from politics, religion, or philosophy, it's not really how people feel they should act, but society has come up with many restrictions that try to deny how people really are, hurting others who do something to annoy you is frowned on. Also there is a lot of variability among people and how they believe they should treat each other, the problem comes when they try to impose their standards on other people who don't believe the same way.
I agree mostly, seeing that imposition can only ever be achieved through coercion or by force. Again, at college Argument was a respected method of discourse, whether one is privy or not.

But the question was: "Earth at the center of the universe?" This is part of an age old religious belief system of Anthropocentrism. I was eluding to the fact that, in this particular thread, it's largely being taken as a physics question. I see that to take it otherwise reeks of Anthropocentrism. Of course everyone likes to stroke themselves, because it feels good! ;-) I for one tend to denounce humans as being no more important than the rest of life on earth, after all, we owe our existence to that which bore us in the beginning and all life's various incarnations on which we feed. The question is much much bigger, than just being about us, no?

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by thedoc » Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:11 pm

OL, when I said shortly, it was relative to the age of the Universe and 380,000 years is a relatively short time.

Also I agree that we can't know for sure that the photons, neutrons and electrons are the same ones that were in existence from when they were first formed, but that is one of the theories that I have heard, and it sounds reasonable. That being said there is no reason to expect the Universe to conform to our ideas of how things should be. As Niels Bohr said, "Einstein, stop telling God what to do!"

As far as the Earth being the center of the universe, from the human perspective, yes we are. We are the only intelligent form of life we know of, and the Earth is the only home, (that we know of) for life at all. If life is the criteria, than we are the center. If you are using some other criteria, then all bets are off, anywhere and everywhere is the center

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by Obvious Leo » Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:16 pm

Doc. I don't think we're actually in disagreement about the origins of matter , either with each other or with conventional physics, but I was seeking to attach a different emphasis to this. The universe is EVOLVING, and an evolutionary process is only definable in the language of its changes. We also have Einstein's famous equation E=mcc to help us understand this. Whilst energy itself is eternal the stuff it can form itself into is not, and this applies as certainly to an electron as it does to a philosopher.

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by skakos » Sat May 07, 2016 4:05 pm

Evolution implies the notion of time, which is a very questionable notion for philosophy.

I once read that due to relativity effects, for a photon created at the Big Bang and travelling ever since in the universe, only 3 seconds would have passed. That is a LONG time...

8)

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by OuterLimits » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:41 pm

skakos wrote:Evolution implies the notion of time, which is a very questionable notion for philosophy.

I once read that due to relativity effects, for a photon created at the Big Bang and travelling ever since in the universe, only 3 seconds would have passed. That is a LONG time...

8)
Questioning involves the notion of time, which is a very questionable notion for philosophy, eh?

Therefore God create man 4 minutes ago using his own belly button lint.

QED :)

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by skakos » Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:20 pm

But again you can question the... questioning process can you not? 8)
And why questioning entails the notion of "time"? You can question something and still be a timeless being living in a timeless cosmos.

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by Noax » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:12 pm

Since this was dredged up from months ago...
skakos wrote:Evolution implies the notion of time, which is a very questionable notion for philosophy.

I once read that due to relativity effects, for a photon created at the Big Bang and travelling ever since in the universe, only 3 seconds would have passed. That is a LONG time...

8)
For one, a photon created at the big bang goes nowhere since the universe was opaque. After about 370000 years, that changed. A photon created then, in its own 'frame' (quoted because lightspeed is not a proper reference frame) takes zero time to travel zero distance. In any actual sub-light frame, it takes whatever time is needed to span the distance.

I have no idea how the term 'evolving' was mean to apply to the changes that happen to the universe. Sure, I change as I age, just like the universe. I guess one can use 'evolving' to describe that, but it would not then be a reference to Darwinian evolution. Change implies time, yes. Not sure how the 'age' of the photon makes any impact to that relationship.

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:02 am

Noax wrote:
a photon created at the big bang goes nowhere since the universe was opaque. After about 370000 years that changed. A photon created
then in its own frame ( quoted because lightspeed is not a proper reference frame ) takes zero time to travel zero distance. In any actual
sub light frame it takes whatever time is needed to span the distance
A photon does not experience time regardless of the distance it has to travel. It is from the external frame of reference of an observer
that it appears to do so as it is travelling at a finite speed. Though from the internal frame of reference of the photon time cannot be
experienced. This is true not only of photons but any particle with zero rest mass that travels at light speed. Also gravitational waves

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:20 am

skakos wrote:
You can question something and still be a timeless being living in a timeless cosmos
All living things experience ageing. The notion of a timeless being is therefore nonsensical. But everything
experiences ageing. For something not to would mean it did not actually exist or time would have to stop
But if it does not exist then it cannot be a thing. And time cannot stop for that is a physical impossibility

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by Noax » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:29 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:A photon does not experience time regardless of the distance it has to travel. It is from the external frame of reference of an observer that it appears to do so as it is travelling at a finite speed. Though from the internal frame of reference of the photon time cannot be experienced. This is true not only of photons but any particle with zero rest mass that travels at light speed. Also gravitational waves
I think that mirrors what I said. It was skakos that mentioned ~3 seconds have passed for the oldest photons we detect.

As for time being unable to stop, that assumes that it is something that goes.

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by skakos » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:16 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:20 am
skakos wrote:
You can question something and still be a timeless being living in a timeless cosmos
All living things experience ageing. The notion of a timeless being is therefore nonsensical. But everything
experiences ageing. For something not to would mean it did not actually exist or time would have to stop
But if it does not exist then it cannot be a thing. And time cannot stop for that is a physical impossibility
Does your soul age? Do you not feel and think of things like you used to when you were a kid? The body deteriorates yes. But not the spirit. At least not in everyone...

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Re: Earth at the center of the Universe?

Post by ken » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:30 am

skakos wrote:
Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:58 am
Is the Sun at the center of the solar system?
Most people would argue "Yes".
And they would laugh at anyone saying otherwise.

But as Einstein said, "The struggle, so violent in the early days of science, between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless. Either CS [Coordinate System] could be used with equal justification. The two sentences, ‘the sun is at rest and the earth moves’ or ‘the sun moves and the earth is at rest,’would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different CS".

Why then do we still insist that "The Sun is at the center of the solar system"? (especially when there are modern theories from modern cosmologists with Earth at the center of the universe solving many problems of modern cosmology, including the problem of dark matter - see George Ellis)

And no, it is not because the heliocentric system is more simple than the geocentric one. Actually the heliocentric system uses MORE epicycles than the geocentric! (the true breakthrough in that came with the elliptical orbits of Kepler, not with the transition to the heliocentric system)

The truth is that behind our belief that the Earth IS NOT at the center of ANYTHING, lies a deep dogmatism: We believe that we ARE NOT unique. So deep is that dogmatism rooted into our thought, that we have formulated a respective astronomy PRINCIPLE (aka "axiom", i.e. something NOT PROVEN) called "the Copernican Principle".

Based on that principle, Hubble himself postulated that Earth is NOT at the center of the UNIVERSE EVEN THOUGH HIS DATA PROVED OTHERWISE!
One can see http://harmoniaphilosophica.wordpress.c ... azj6wq-39/ for a brief analysis of arguments concerning the subject, including an analysis of the paper issued by Hubble and how he changed his initial finding based on his dogmatic beliefs.

Thoughts?
Earth is not at the center of the Universe because there is no physical center of the Universe.
However, Everything is relative to the observer.
So, the center of the Universe IS wherever a human body is.

Wherever the observer is, every thing else is seen out from that point.
So, if an observer is away from earth in "space", then that is the center of the Universe.

Furthermore, and roughly speaking, from the observing human being on earth, then the earth is nearer to the perceived center of the Universe then it is to the observing human being further away from earth.

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