How are scintific theories produced?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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effie
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Post by effie »

b2b,

I agree that knowledge is not the ONLY way in general, but when it comes to science it is.

That's all for now :-)

Effie
mark black
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:28 am

Post by mark black »

My mentor says that if your mentor were real, he'd be on the cover of Time magazine - author, mentor, life saving doctor, third man on the moon. The library of congress has every book ever published - except that of your mentor. She says give us an ISBN number.

She suggests this post, and I quote, is 'more bullshit from the bullshit factory that is effie.' And that 'it's as clear as day that effie is lying. Everyone knows this - but others are too polite to say anything.'

Personally, I value honesty over politeness. And for that reason I'll tell you straight. I tuned in to find out what b2b was writing about and spotted my own name.

As for this 'straight from the source' nonsense - my mentor says no respectable academic would propose such an attitude. Academia is founded on sceptical enquiry - and forming hypotheses with reference to evidence.

My mentor requests that I put it to you that you're a patient who imagines themselves a psychologist - and that if your psychologist, who you imagine is your mentor knew of this site, he'd be horrified. You lie to him, you lie to yourself and you lie to us. And that's what you're being treated for.

You'll never be offended because you're incapable of the emotion - you're a sociopathic fantasist. A compulsive liar - but not a very good one, because you don't have a sound appreciation of the limits of your own intelligence.

mb.

p.s. don't blame me - that's what my mentor says!
effie
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:58 am

Post by effie »

Mark,

you are very generous, since you waste your time and your grey matter struggling to find vague, meaningless answers to my posts. Impressive!!

You waste your time responding to a person whom you consider unreliable and a liar. I think that you do not appreciate your time and consequently you do not appreciate yourself.

I have had disagreements with b2b and other members of the forum, but always in a civilized and creative manner. You know, politeness does not undermine honesty- one can express truth and be very polite at the same time.

Indeed, the other members are very polite. However, they choose either to discuss with me or ignore my posts. No one is so insecure as to try to draw some attention by offending people.

Friendly advice: go do your homework, come up with some new ideas and then maybe you will earn some appreciation... I have noticed your expressed lament (that you have not managed to change any other person's point of view). Fortunately,I was lucky, because I had someone to teach me those ideas, you will have to try it on your own :-)

Effie

Ps. You STILL have not expressed any objections regarding my posts: Are all normal sciences founded on a basic truth or not? Does the quality of this basic truth affect the effectiveness of scientific work (both theoretical and research)? etc.

You seem unable to deal with these issues (you obviously have no scientific education and experience besides your philosophical chatter), so you choose to participate by insulting. That's ok, everyone reacts according to their potential :lol:
Last edited by effie on Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
effie
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:58 am

Post by effie »

The reason why I am not willing to reveal the identity of my mentor (or mine) is that there are some people like Mark, who don't want to judge the ideas that are expressed but the personality and achievements of the sayer.

Since last November I have been trying to present some "heretic" ideas. If I were a well known scientist, would those ideas be considered correct, while if I were an unknown employee everything I say would be wrong? That's not how the story goes, at least as far as science is concerned...

Arbitrary acceptance on one hand and arbitrary criticism are the two extremes I will try to avoid.

Mark, no matter how hard you try, I am like a train: I do not deviate from my track and my principles. Unfortunately, I cannot ignore other people, therefore I cannot treat you as invisible, like other members of the forum do. You totally deserve this behaviour, but I cannot help hoping that some day things will change and you will behave like a grown-up.
mark black
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:28 am

Post by mark black »

Don't blame me effie, I'm with you - but my imaginary mentor doesn't seem to believe you at all. She says that everything you say is just a bit off - and that you're not being honest with people.

She says that the list of your evasive devices is beyond credible. I'm not even sure what that means.

So, you're Greek, and your mentor, who prefers to remain nameless has written a book - ONLY PUBLISHED IN GREEK, with the ambiguous title 'the perception of man.' Despite telling us the title and the year, you don't want to reveal his identity - because then, we'd become prejudiced. You must have known that, no matter how we search, we wouldn't find any evidence of this book.

My mentor says that we've discussed everything on this site - from holocaust denial to God, to population control, to the extinction of humankind with a fairly even collective hand, and that it's an insult to say we'd be prejudiced, but I'd like to thank you for protecting us from our intellectual childishness.

Seems perfectly plausible to me - but my mentor says it's bullshit. We had a terrible row - and she told me to ask you for an ISBN number. And that's what I did. Now, she says that your evasion on this matter is proof enough that you're a liar. This is your opportunity to shut her up for good. Effie, give us the ISBN number of your mentors book.

mb.
RachelAnn
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:32 pm
Location: Troy, NY

Post by RachelAnn »

Since last November I have been trying to present some "heretic" ideas.
I present "heretic" ideas on this forum - call it chumming the waters. If I did not think what I say is right, why write it? I do not give a rat's rump if others dislike my views. So what if we beat one another up now and then? It rarely gets out of hand, these "verbal brawls."
And, if others can persuade me to see another aspect to one of my views, I respect that. Some people on this forum have challenged me to take second and third looks at my assumptions - fine by me.
effie
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:58 am

Post by effie »

Mark,

give me an address and I will send you a copy. Maybe then you will realize how unfair you have been. However, I do not want to expose any info on internet...is it so difficult to understand that?

Give me the address- I expect that if I have personal info about you, you won't expose my personal info (that's a fair deal I think).

Effie
effie
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Post by effie »

RachelAnn,

that's what I am talking about!

People do not have to agree in order to get along with each other.
We may convince people, get convinced by them, argue, etc. It is all part of the game and it's the only way to evolve.

If we all agreed, we would just admire each other and remain stable- that's not what philosophy is about!
Well-founded criticism is not only welcome: it is absolutely essential. However, personal attacks cannot be considered as an "ëxchange of opinions"!

I keep telling to people who contribute to this thread that I look forward to their judgement and I mean it 100%!

Effie
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Arising_uk
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Post by Arising_uk »

effie,
effie wrote:A_uk,
if you are convinced that science has completed its work regarding the identity of the noetic organ- mind, then why:
Did I say this? In my opinion Science is only now just turning its attention upon Mind due to advances in tools and techniques that are now allowing some meaningful scientific research.
1. does it continue working on the subject? What does it try to discover?
Personally I prefer 'describe' rather than 'discover' but either way they will be attempting to produce a model of the processes that can be tested.
2. does it not interpret the phenomena (intellectual faculties and mental disorders) it studies?
Not sure of your point here? Are you are talking about Psychiatry rather than the mixed field of Neuroscience?
Are you implying that all biological factors have been discovered and studied and that there is nothing more left for science to discover?
Of course not.
Why are there innumerous laboratories around the world which try to discover where infrmation are stored?
My guess is there are loads of researchers making hypothesis about where 'information' is stored in their respective fields but if they are looking for 'where' 'information' is stored with respect to humans then they need look no further than the central nervous system. Computational Neural Nets display more than enough of the properties of human 'memory' to allow us to posit that the 100 billion+(uk) 'neural net' we have will be enough to account for 'memory'.
The results of the specialized researches demonstrate that information reach brain but none of them has proved that information are stored in any part of the brain. Consequently, the inability of science to prove how and where info are stored "forces" us to continue the effort to discover the identity of the biological factor (entity) in which memory is stored.
What do these researches think 'storage' in a 'neural net' is?
I totally agree that neural nets do not have the required properties. I think that it has been proved that memory isn't stored in neurons, although the latter participate in the "memorization" process.
I totally agree that a 'neural net' is not enough to produce Mind, it needs a Body support and sensing system to do this. Since people appear to be unclear about what a 'neural net' memory is, my assumption is that they have proved no such thing?
However, the fact that we haven't yet the memory "store" does not mean that there isn't a memory substrate, since information are stored! In other words, it doesn't mean that the noetic organ is not a biological factor with physical and functional properties!!!

On the contrary, there are plenty of scientific evidence (which I have at my disposal and I am trying to present) which reveal the identity of the factor science has been looking for and the way in which it functions. Furthermore, I have papers which refer to the role of brain in the intellectual faculties. If you are interested I can send you the titles. (it's the first time in my life that I almost beg people to provide them with evidence- usually people demand evidence :-) ).
We have the 'memory store', its the CNS, what we do not have is a complete understanding of all the systems and relationships in the Body.

I don't doubt that your 'fields' may exist and that they can have effects upon Mind but think you are going to be disappointed if they are where you are pinning your hopes upon explaining Mind and especially where memory is 'stored'. Your project reminds me of those Physicists who are searching the quantum levels of the Brain to explain Mind, i.e. misplaced.
Ps. We agree that body consists of "three interconnected systems", but I am not sure if we refer to the same systems. Which systems do you refer to?
Actually I have issues about how many systems there are in a Body but I agree its three minimum. CNS, Endochrine and the Skeletal/Muscular systems. Although the Cardio-Vascular and Digestive systems appear to be ones as well and how the Skin fits in, I'm very unsure about. I can see that the Cardio-Vascular and Digestive are alike in that you could understand the CV to be 'eating' air and the Digestive as 'breathing' food but I'm unsure what to make of such thoughts.
a_uk
mark black
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:28 am

Post by mark black »

effie,

My imaginary mentor advises me not to give my address to a nutter on the internet. She says that's far more invasive that giving us the ISBN number of a book to which you've already provided title and year of publication. (A book written solely for the 10 million strong population of Greece!!!)

I'm starting to see what she means. It's always something, isn't it?

mb.
Richard Baron
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Contact:

Post by Richard Baron »

The mystery is intriguing. I have googled

η αντίληψη του ανθρώπου

but without finding a book of that title. I don't think that they problem is one of capital v lower-case letters, as the search picked up some results with initial capitals and I tried again with initial capitals.

Effie, is this the correct title, or are other words used?

(For anyone whose browser does not display the Greek correctly, the transliteration is

e antilepse tou anthropou,

with all e's being etas and the first o being an omega)
effie
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:58 am

Post by effie »

Mark,

the book hasn't been written for "the 10 million strong population of Greece". (When you read something, make sure you read it carefully: the book has been written for my mentor's patients, who wanted to have in a written form all that my mentor was telling them during their therapeutic sessions...)

I am really tired of this story and I would like to end it-on my terms. I offered to send you a copy, but you insist that I must reveal those information on-line. I would never do that, no matter what you say- so simple!

Don't you feel sorry for the time you waste?

If you were willing to cooperate, we would have ended this story long ago- I still offer to send you this bloody book. Either accept my offer or stop addressing to me personally- there is no point in this conversation anymore.

I've been in this forum for over a month and I still I haven't read your views regarding philosophy of science (and my posts in particular), even if I have challenged you so many times. On the other hand, I have seen a wide range of your (infinite, that's for sure) offensive repertoire. Fascinating proportion!!! :lol:

Merry Christmas
effie
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:58 am

Post by effie »

Richard Baron,

first of all I think that there are far more intriguing mysteries (the mystery of human/cell mind and intellectual faculties mystery that we were trying to discuss, for example).

Yes, the title is correct. No, you won't find the book on internet, I already told Mark that "the fact that you cannot find it on google does not mean that it does not exist". The greek title is Η αντίληψη του ανθρώπου, but has never been published on a national level. Only a few thousands of copies have been printed, for my mentor's patients. If it was a broadly circulating book, why would have I any trouble to say who the author is?
On the contrary, I would have tried to advertise it, not "hide" it!!!!!!

Besides, as Mark has already pointed out, I have mentioned the title and the year when the book was published. If anoyne could have access to this book and find more details, why would I give those information, since I wanted to keep secret the identity of the author?

If it is so important for you, I could scan a copy, hide the name of the author and other details and publish it in this forum. Would that make everyone happy?? (Of course you need someone for the translation- it is well known that my English is not good enough :-) )

Ps: The most intriguing mystery is that when a "fight" burst, more people are willing to participate in this thread...Bizarre!
mark black
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:28 am

Post by mark black »

effie,

I wonder of you can point me to the passage in which you said this imaginary book with the ambiguopus title was published, in greek, merely for a few of your imaginary mentor's patients?

Below are quotes where you have previously mentioned this book, and no matter how carefully I read, nowhere can I find any reference to patients. First it was a book written in 1988. Then a book written in greek. Now it's a book written in greek for psychiatric hospital circulation only.

In that case, when I first asked for an ISBN number, why didn't you say it hasn't got one. Come on effie, you're clearly bullshitting us, and it's not good for you and it's not good for us. Take this opportunity to come clean - and take responsibility for these ideas upon your own shoulders. I assure you, there are people making stupider arguments on this site.
In order to explain your dream (the reasons why you had it and how) we need to explain dreams in general. My mentor, in 1988 has written a book (" the perception of man") that explains these experiences, but I cannot yet explain it here.
Another criterion from Mark: something that cannot be found in google does not exist. Hmmmm.... A solid argument, indeed!
(btw, "perception of man" is the title of the book that has been published ONLY in GREEK. I never said that it has been published in English, I just translated the greek title....)
mb.
effie
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:58 am

Post by effie »

Mark,

it is a book written in Greek, published in 1988. I never said it was for psychiatric hospital circulation only- these are your words and do not reflect reality. I do not know if it has an ISBN number or not- I don't have a copy available now. (to be honest, I didn't know what an ISBN number was until you mentioned it and I googled it)

Furthermore, here it is not a court and I have no need "to come clean".

You may be right in one point: I may have written some details about this book in another forum and thought I had written it here. Tomorrow I will browse my posts and see if I haven't written these info here. (anyhow, i will point you to the passage, either it is on this forum or not).

To get it over with: Do you want the book or not? I have not any other way to prove I am right. I can only get a copy of this damn book and present it to you (either scan it or send it by post). I do not have anyhting else to propose to you: only a yellow book, printed in 1988 in Greek at your door or in your forum....
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