Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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socrat44
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Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by socrat44 »

Saturday, July 24, 2021
Can Physics Be Too Speculative?
/ Posted by Sabine Hossenfelder /
------------
Imagination . . .
Multiverses, dark matter, string theory, fifth forces, . . .
Have physicists gone too far in their speculations?
. . . where to draw the line between science and pseudoscience.
. . . . Dark matter is an example of a research program that used to be progressive
but has become degenerative.
. . . guessing a specific particle from rather unspecific observations of its gravitational pull
has an infinitesimal chance of working.

Theories for the early universe or fifth forces suffer from a similar problem.
They do not explain any existing observations. Instead, they make the existing
– very well working – theories more complicated without solving any problem.

Multiverse research concerns itself with postulating the existence of entities
that are unobservable in principle. This isn’t scientific and should have no place in physics.
The origin of the problem seems to be that many physicists are Platonists – they believe
that their math is real, rather than just a description of reality.
But Platonism is a philosophy and shouldn’t be mistaken for science.

/ Posted by Sabine Hossenfelder /
------------
https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2021/ ... 34hNJUSs7k
----------
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by Terrapin Station »

I don't know if it's "too speculative," but it has a tendency to "take mathematics as primary (ontologically)" and then to reify mathematics.

A lot of the stuff that you're referring to is a result of how one gets the correct (predictive) answers mathematically, under current theoretical paradigms (current theoretical models). This really just tells us something about how to manipulate mathematical ideas so that they're correlated to observations. But there's a tendency (and to an extent a necessity when it comes to interesting the general public and securing funding) to want to talk in terms of metaphors about the observable/external world regarding what the world might be like under a platonic interpretation of mathematics where mathematics is ontologically primary (which unfortunately a lot of scientists believe is literally the case).
socrat44
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by socrat44 »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:15 am I don't know if it's "too speculative," but it has a tendency to "take mathematics as primary (ontologically)" and then to reify mathematics.

A lot of the stuff that you're referring to is a result of how one gets the correct (predictive) answers mathematically,
under current theoretical paradigms (current theoretical models). This really just tells us something about
how to manipulate mathematical ideas so that they're correlated to observations.
But there's a tendency (and to an extent a necessity when it comes to interesting the general public
and securing funding) to want to talk in terms of metaphors about the observable/external world
regarding what the world might be like under a platonic interpretation of mathematics where mathematics
is ontologically primary (which unfortunately a lot of scientists believe is literally the case).
Sorry,
What is "ontological primary mathematics"?
In terms of metaphors Bible was written, not Physics
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RCSaunders
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by RCSaunders »

socrat44 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:02 am Saturday, July 24, 2021
Can Physics Be Too Speculative?
/ Posted by Sabine Hossenfelder /
------------
Imagination . . .
Multiverses, dark matter, string theory, fifth forces, . . .
Have physicists gone too far in their speculations?
. . . where to draw the line between science and pseudoscience.
. . . . Dark matter is an example of a research program that used to be progressive
but has become degenerative.
. . . guessing a specific particle from rather unspecific observations of its gravitational pull
has an infinitesimal chance of working.

Theories for the early universe or fifth forces suffer from a similar problem.
They do not explain any existing observations. Instead, they make the existing
– very well working – theories more complicated without solving any problem.

Multiverse research concerns itself with postulating the existence of entities
that are unobservable in principle. This isn’t scientific and should have no place in physics.
The origin of the problem seems to be that many physicists are Platonists – they believe
that their math is real, rather than just a description of reality.
But Platonism is a philosophy and shouldn’t be mistaken for science.

/ Posted by Sabine Hossenfelder /
------------
https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2021/ ... 34hNJUSs7k
----------
Well a lot goes by the name science today which is not science at all, and most of that pseudo-science is definitely speculative or even pure fiction.

I'm not at all surprised at the response to your good article, and it is good. You've definitly stepped on too many toes that have a vested interest in what goes by the name science to day.

I found this post especially interesting because it reflects almost exactly a discussion I had earlier on another thread regarding the history of science and philosophy. Your right about Platonism. You might be suprised that Pythagorism has the same problem.
To Pythagoreans, the pleasing sounds of a harmonious scale were however of secondary importance – a by-product of the fact that the ‘limiting things’, the mathematical rules, were applied appropriately. The main purpose of the Pythagoreans’ intellectual endeavour was to discover and contemplate these mathematical rules that they believed governed the world, so that they could lead well-ordered, harmonious lives.
I refer to that as the Pythogorean fallacy and it has forever since plagued and corrupted both philosophy and science. Mathematics is nothing more than a human invented method of identifying and describing those aspects of reality that can be counted or measured. Mathematical, "rules," have no efficiency to make anything happen, they are merely the recognition of what is, not the cause of what is. The same mistake is made today by those who point to scientific principles as the reason why things are what they are. The scientific principles do not cause or mold reality, they only describe it.
Excellent article!
seeds
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by seeds »

socrat44 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:02 am Saturday, July 24, 2021
Can Physics Be Too Speculative?
/ Posted by Sabine Hossenfelder /

------------
https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2021/ ... 34hNJUSs7k
----------
The very first line in Hossenfelder's blogpost is this:

"Imagination and creativity are the heart of science."

However, Sabine Hossenfelder is not only a self-proclaimed "superdeterminist," but she also strongly insists that there is no such thing as "free will."

In regards to superdeterminism, according to Wiki:
Wiki wrote: In the 1980s, John Bell discussed superdeterminism in a BBC interview:
There is a way to escape the inference of superluminal speeds and spooky action at a distance. But it involves absolute determinism in the universe, the complete absence of free will. Suppose the world is super-deterministic, with not just inanimate nature running on behind-the-scenes clockwork, but with our behavior, including our belief that we are free to choose to do one experiment rather than another, absolutely predetermined, including the "decision" by the experimenter to carry out one set of measurements rather than another, the difficulty disappears. There is no need for a faster than light signal to tell particle A what measurement has been carried out on particle B, because the universe, including particle A, already "knows" what that measurement, and its outcome, will be.
My point is that if according to superdeterminism, every action and event is predetermined, then I cannot help but wonder how "imagination and creativity" fits-in with Sabine's philosophy, especially if there is nothing in possession of "free will" that can do the imagining and the creating?
----------------
Kudos to Sabine (a world renowned theoretical physicist) for creating a blog where she allows us riff-raff to post comments on threads (not unlike here) and she will sometimes respond. Indeed, I have gotten into several arguments* with her in the last couple of years.

*(By "arguments" I mean I write something critical of her hardcore materialism and she tells me how confused she thinks I am. :lol:)

(P.S., uwot, if by chance you are reading this, if you haven't already done so, then you might enjoy participating in some of the conversations over there.)
_______
socrat44
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by socrat44 »

socrat44 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:18 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:15 am I don't know if it's "too speculative," but it has a tendency to "take mathematics as primary (ontologically)" and then to reify mathematics.

A lot of the stuff that you're referring to is a result of how one gets the correct (predictive) answers mathematically,
under current theoretical paradigms (current theoretical models). This really just tells us something about
how to manipulate mathematical ideas so that they're correlated to observations.
But there's a tendency (and to an extent a necessity when it comes to interesting the general public
and securing funding) to want to talk in terms of metaphors about the observable/external world
regarding what the world might be like under a platonic interpretation of mathematics where mathematics
is ontologically primary (which unfortunately a lot of scientists believe is literally the case).
Sorry,
What is "ontological primary mathematics"?
In terms of metaphors Bible was written, not Physics
Can "ontological primary mathematics" be the Imaginary Part of Quantum Mechanics?
#
Physicists Prove That the Imaginary Part of Quantum Mechanics Really Exists!
By Faculty of Physics University of Warsaw on Apr 27, 2021

https://scitechdaily.com/physicists-pro ... KGkIFzeblE
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by Terrapin Station »

socrat44 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:18 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:15 am I don't know if it's "too speculative," but it has a tendency to "take mathematics as primary (ontologically)" and then to reify mathematics.

A lot of the stuff that you're referring to is a result of how one gets the correct (predictive) answers mathematically,
under current theoretical paradigms (current theoretical models). This really just tells us something about
how to manipulate mathematical ideas so that they're correlated to observations.
But there's a tendency (and to an extent a necessity when it comes to interesting the general public
and securing funding) to want to talk in terms of metaphors about the observable/external world
regarding what the world might be like under a platonic interpretation of mathematics where mathematics
is ontologically primary (which unfortunately a lot of scientists believe is literally the case).
Sorry,
What is "ontological primary mathematics"?
In terms of metaphors Bible was written, not Physics
First, do you know what ontology is?
Skepdick
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by Skepdick »

Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:05 am First, do you know what ontology is?
This is either an ignorant question, or a question intended to deceive.

To be is to be the value of a bound variable.--W.V.Quine

The error is in placing a question-mark at the end of that English expression when you should've put a full stop.

Not "What is ontology?" but ""What" is ontology.". It's an assignment.

Ontology IS the "what".
what = ontology.

The question "Do you know what ontology is?" triggers a rift in perspective. It's an ontological question about ontology! It's meta-ontology.
The correct quesion is "Do you know that what is ontology?" and the anwer is "Yes, I know that."
socrat44
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by socrat44 »

Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:05 am
socrat44 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:18 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:15 am I don't know if it's "too speculative," but it has a tendency to "take mathematics as primary (ontologically)" and then to reify mathematics.

A lot of the stuff that you're referring to is a result of how one gets the correct (predictive) answers mathematically,
under current theoretical paradigms (current theoretical models). This really just tells us something about
how to manipulate mathematical ideas so that they're correlated to observations.
But there's a tendency (and to an extent a necessity when it comes to interesting the general public
and securing funding) to want to talk in terms of metaphors about the observable/external world
regarding what the world might be like under a platonic interpretation of mathematics where mathematics
is ontologically primary (which unfortunately a lot of scientists believe is literally the case).
Sorry,
What is "ontological primary mathematics"?
In terms of metaphors Bible was written, not Physics
First, do you know what ontology is?
ontological - existential - metaphysical - phenomenological - philosophical - supernatural - transcendental
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/ontological
socrat44
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by socrat44 »

socrat44 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:36 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:05 am
socrat44 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:18 pm

Sorry,
What is "ontological primary mathematics"?
In terms of metaphors Bible was written, not Physics
First, do you know what ontology is?
ontological - existential - metaphysical - phenomenological - philosophical - supernatural - transcendental
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/ontological
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by Terrapin Station »

socrat44 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:36 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:05 am
socrat44 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:18 pm

Sorry,
What is "ontological primary mathematics"?
In terms of metaphors Bible was written, not Physics
First, do you know what ontology is?
ontological - existential - metaphysical - phenomenological - philosophical - supernatural - transcendental
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/ontological
I'm asking if you're familiar with the field at all, not if you can look up the word and list some synonyms for it per a thesaurus. The reason I'm asking is so I have an idea where to begin an explanation so it will hopefully make some sense to you.
uwot
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by uwot »

seeds wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:22 pm(P.S., uwot, if by chance you are reading this, if you haven't already done so, then you might enjoy participating in some of the conversations over there.)
Wotcher seeds. I've yet to do so, but I shall certainly look into it. Thanks for the tip.
Skepdick
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by Skepdick »

seeds wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:22 pm However, Sabine Hossenfelder is not only a self-proclaimed "superdeterminist," but she also strongly insists that there is no such thing as "free will."

In regards to superdeterminism, according to Wiki:
Superdeterminism is the same thing as the simulation hypothesis. Which Sabine rejects.
It's the same thing as a belief in God.

Sabine doesn't know her Metaphysics from her physics. Or, at the very least - she doesn't talk about it in fear of losing her reputaiton.
socrat44
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by socrat44 »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:15 am I don't know if it's "too speculative," but it has a tendency
to "take mathematics as primary (ontologically)" and then to reify mathematics.
Sorry,
What is "mathematics as primary (ontologically)" ?
=========
Atla
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Re: Can Physics Be Too Speculative? / by Sabine Hossenfelder /

Post by Atla »

Superdeterminism is the only logical position duh
Skepdick wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:47 pm Superdeterminism is the same thing as the simulation hypothesis
you're an idiot
seeds wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:22 pm every action and event is predetermined, then I cannot help but wonder how "imagination and creativity" fits-in with Sabine's philosophy, especially if there is nothing in possession of "free will" that can do the imagining and the creating?
you're an idiot
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