Conscious universe?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Age
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:09 pm
Age wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:30 am
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm Have you NOT YET noticed just how much incoherence there is, in reality?

Or, more correctly, there is, ONLY, in 'you', human beings.

By the way, if you are interested, 'you', "bahman", have a very bad habit of "circular reasoning". Although your conclusions are sometimes ABSOLUTELY True, Right, and Correct, the way you get there is VERY CIRCULAR, and so it is NOT helping your cause.

For example,
There could be no coherence in reality without the mind to perceive and experience things.
There is coherence in reality.
Therefore, the mind has the ability to perceive and experience things.

The Universe, Itself, is a formed unified whole. It did NOT need a species to evolve and come along for 'coherence' to then occur. The Universe exists and IS COHERED on Its OWN.

In 'Reality', Itself, there is ONLY coherence. And, it is only 'you', human being species, which "pulls apart" or "separates" this COHERENCE. This is because of how the human brain works. For the human brain to UNDERSTAND FULLY the 'world'/the Universe/the Reality that it lives in it has to make an APPEARANCE of 'separation', which it can only do this through words and language.
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:55 pm
I should have said that this is my argument.


So what?
Well now that you have CLEARED this up by stating that you should have said, "THIS is my argument", instead of, "THAT is my argument", what I wrote does NOT matter ANYMORE.

So, "So what?" is now moot.
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:55 pm What you said that it is my argument is not my argument.
But I did NOT write, "That is my argument:"

It was 'you', "bahman", who wrote, "That is my argument;".
Again, this is my argument:
1) The reality is coherent
2) Without experience there could be no coherence
3) Therefore, the reality experiences
What you said that was circular is not mine.
But I thought what you said in your last past that that was your "last thought". What is this here now if NOT ANOTHER thought?

1) It would be pretty ILLOGICAL and NONSENSICAL to ASSUME or SAY that, "The reality is incoherent", correct? Also, 'the reality', itself, might well be coherent, BUT what, EXACTLY, is 'the reality', itself?

2) If the Universe, Itself, does NOT experience, as you claim It does NOT, and the Universe existed BEFORE ANY thing evolved into being, which can experience, then what was 'that reality' of the Universe, prior to the experiencing thing/s, where there was SUPPOSEDLY NO coherence?

3) Did you CLARIFY what EXACTLY 'the reality', itself, ACTUALLY IS, in number 1), so that I now KNOW what 'the reality' IS, which, you have concluded here, experiences?

What EXACTLY did I say was circular, which is SUPPOSEDLY not yours?
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bahman
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:06 pm
Age wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:42 am

Previously, in this thread, you had concluded: The Universe is conscious.

I then asked you: The universe is conscious of 'what', EXACTLY.

You replied: Qualia.

I then asked: How, EXACTLY, does the Universe, Itself, perceive or experience things?

You then said: That is the ability of the mind.

I asked: Which mind?

You said: All minds.

I then stated: So, to you, the Universe, Itself, perceives or experiences things through ALL minds.

You then said: No. The universe is made of minds and Qualia. These are minds who experience not the universe.

So, to you, the Universe is conscious of: Qualia, which the Universe is made of, and the Universe is made of more than one mind, and these minds are a 'who', or an entity, which experiences, but the Universe does not experience. Is this now correct?

You then go on to say that you have an argument that there are at least two minds, but how many minds there are EXACTLY you do not know AT ALL, correct?

You also state that the Universe is JUST a collection of minds and qualia, is the 'just' word here meant to infer that the Universe is a collection of minds and qualia, ONLY?

You also state that the Universe is NOT an entity, and because It is NOT an entity then that means that the Universe can NOT experience ANY thing. But you also state that the Universe is conscious of qualia. So, I am just wondering now, how a non entity, which can NOT experience ANY thing, also be conscious of SOME things like qualia?
This is my last thought. The universe is not an entity. Therefore it is not conscious. Things within however are conscious.
WHY WAS this your "last thought"?
Because I realize the mistake I made so I corrected it.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Did 'you' just STOP thinking and are NEVER going to think EVER AGAIN?
No. I just clear my mind on this subject.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am If yes, then I will NOT ask you ANYMORE clarifying questions.
Ok.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am But if no, then what are these 'things', EXACTLY, within the Universe, which are conscious?
Anyhing which has a mind.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am
bahman wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:09 pm
Age wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:30 am



Well now that you have CLEARED this up by stating that you should have said, "THIS is my argument", instead of, "THAT is my argument", what I wrote does NOT matter ANYMORE.

So, "So what?" is now moot.



But I did NOT write, "That is my argument:"

It was 'you', "bahman", who wrote, "That is my argument;".
Again, this is my argument:
1) The reality is coherent
2) Without experience there could be no coherence
3) Therefore, the reality experiences
What you said that was circular is not mine.
But I thought what you said in your last past that that was your "last thought". What is this here now if NOT ANOTHER thought?
I didn't mean that I have nothing more to say.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am 1) It would be pretty ILLOGICAL and NONSENSICAL to ASSUME or SAY that, "The reality is incoherent", correct?
Yes, it is nonsense to say that the reality is incoherent.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am Also, 'the reality', itself, might well be coherent, BUT what, EXACTLY, is 'the reality', itself?
Minds and Qualia.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am 2) If the Universe, Itself, does NOT experience, as you claim It does NOT, and the Universe existed BEFORE ANY thing evolved into being, which can experience, then what was 'that reality' of the Universe, prior to the experiencing thing/s, where there was SUPPOSEDLY NO coherence?
Minds have existed since the beginning.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am 3) Did you CLARIFY what EXACTLY 'the reality', itself, ACTUALLY IS, in number 1), so that I now KNOW what 'the reality' IS, which, you have concluded here, experiences?
I did.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am What EXACTLY did I say was circular, which is SUPPOSEDLY not yours?
This is what you said that is not what I said:
There could be no coherence in reality without the mind to perceive and experience things.
There is coherence in reality.
Therefore, the mind has the ability to perceive and experience things.
Age
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:08 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:06 pm
This is my last thought. The universe is not an entity. Therefore it is not conscious. Things within however are conscious.
WHY WAS this your "last thought"?
Because I realize the mistake I made so I corrected it.
But you WILL have FURTHER thoughts, correct?

And, of those FURTHER thoughts, you WILL realize the mistakes within them, and so correct those incorrect thoughts as well, also, right?
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:08 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Did 'you' just STOP thinking and are NEVER going to think EVER AGAIN?
No. I just clear my mind on this subject.
Who and/or what is this 'you', which can just "clear its mind" on subjects?

And what is this "mind" thing, which is NOT clear, and which 'you' can "just clear", for 'it'?
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:08 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am If yes, then I will NOT ask you ANYMORE clarifying questions.
Ok.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am But if no, then what are these 'things', EXACTLY, within the Universe, which are conscious?
Anyhing which has a mind.
What 'things', "have a mind".

And do these "things" have the EXACT SAME "mind", or do these "things" have DIFFERENT "minds"?

And, if things have different "minds", then how EXACTLY does one separate and distinguish BETWEEN these supposed different "minds"?
Age
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:21 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am
bahman wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:09 pm
Again, this is my argument:
1) The reality is coherent
2) Without experience there could be no coherence
3) Therefore, the reality experiences
What you said that was circular is not mine.
But I thought what you said in your last past that that was your "last thought". What is this here now if NOT ANOTHER thought?
I didn't mean that I have nothing more to say.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am 1) It would be pretty ILLOGICAL and NONSENSICAL to ASSUME or SAY that, "The reality is incoherent", correct?
Yes, it is nonsense to say that the reality is incoherent.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am Also, 'the reality', itself, might well be coherent, BUT what, EXACTLY, is 'the reality', itself?
Minds and Qualia.
So, when you write and say, "reality", then what you are essentially saying and referring to is, "minds and qualia", correct?
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:21 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am 2) If the Universe, Itself, does NOT experience, as you claim It does NOT, and the Universe existed BEFORE ANY thing evolved into being, which can experience, then what was 'that reality' of the Universe, prior to the experiencing thing/s, where there was SUPPOSEDLY NO coherence?
Minds have existed since the beginning.
Was there a "beginning", and when was that "beginning"?

Also, how did that beginning begin, or start, and, who or what caused/created that "beginning"?
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:21 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am 3) Did you CLARIFY what EXACTLY 'the reality', itself, ACTUALLY IS, in number 1), so that I now KNOW what 'the reality' IS, which, you have concluded here, experiences?
I did.
So, to you "minds" and "qualia" experience, correct?
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:21 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am What EXACTLY did I say was circular, which is SUPPOSEDLY not yours?
This is what you said that is not what I said:
There could be no coherence in reality without the mind to perceive and experience things.
There is coherence in reality.
Therefore, the mind has the ability to perceive and experience things.
This here sounds VERY CIRCULAR to me.

Anyway, IF this "mind" thing has the ability to perceive AND experience things, then, again, what is this "mind" thing, EXACTLY?
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:39 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:08 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
WHY WAS this your "last thought"?
Because I realize the mistake I made so I corrected it.
But you WILL have FURTHER thoughts, correct?
Sure yes.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, of those FURTHER thoughts, you WILL realize the mistakes within them, and so correct those incorrect thoughts as well, also, right?
Sure yes.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:08 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Did 'you' just STOP thinking and are NEVER going to think EVER AGAIN?
No. I just clear my mind on this subject.
Who and/or what is this 'you', which can just "clear its mind" on subjects?
I am a person.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And what is this "mind" thing, which is NOT clear, and which 'you' can "just clear", for 'it'?
Mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience and cause.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:08 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am If yes, then I will NOT ask you ANYMORE clarifying questions.
Ok.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am But if no, then what are these 'things', EXACTLY, within the Universe, which are conscious?
Anyhing which has a mind.
What 'things', "have a mind".
Human for sure. Any alive things for sure too. I think that even a rock has a mind.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And do these "things" have the EXACT SAME "mind", or do these "things" have DIFFERENT "minds"?
They have different minds.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, if things have different "minds", then how EXACTLY does one separate and distinguish BETWEEN these supposed different "minds"?
Different minds have different identities, they experience different things...
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bahman
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:37 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:21 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am
But I thought what you said in your last past that that was your "last thought". What is this here now if NOT ANOTHER thought?
I didn't mean that I have nothing more to say.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am 1) It would be pretty ILLOGICAL and NONSENSICAL to ASSUME or SAY that, "The reality is incoherent", correct?
Yes, it is nonsense to say that the reality is incoherent.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am Also, 'the reality', itself, might well be coherent, BUT what, EXACTLY, is 'the reality', itself?
Minds and Qualia.
So, when you write and say, "reality", then what you are essentially saying and referring to is, "minds and qualia", correct?
Yes.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:21 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am 2) If the Universe, Itself, does NOT experience, as you claim It does NOT, and the Universe existed BEFORE ANY thing evolved into being, which can experience, then what was 'that reality' of the Universe, prior to the experiencing thing/s, where there was SUPPOSEDLY NO coherence?
Minds have existed since the beginning.
Was there a "beginning", and when was that "beginning"?
Yes, there was a beginning. Big Bang.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am Also, how did that beginning begin, or start, and, who or what caused/created that "beginning"?
Minds existed at the beginning. Either Qualia existed at the beginning or not. In the first case, minds experience Qualia and cause Qualia. So things started this way. In the second case, Qualia must pop into existence.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:21 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am 3) Did you CLARIFY what EXACTLY 'the reality', itself, ACTUALLY IS, in number 1), so that I now KNOW what 'the reality' IS, which, you have concluded here, experiences?
I did.
So, to you "minds" and "qualia" experience, correct?
No, minds experience Qualia.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:21 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am What EXACTLY did I say was circular, which is SUPPOSEDLY not yours?
This is what you said that is not what I said:
There could be no coherence in reality without the mind to perceive and experience things.
There is coherence in reality.
Therefore, the mind has the ability to perceive and experience things.
This here sounds VERY CIRCULAR to me.

Anyway, IF this "mind" thing has the ability to perceive AND experience things, then, again, what is this "mind" thing, EXACTLY?
It is what it is. Mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experiences and causes Qualia.
Age
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Age wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:39 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:08 pm
Because I realize the mistake I made so I corrected it.
But you WILL have FURTHER thoughts, correct?
Sure yes.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, of those FURTHER thoughts, you WILL realize the mistakes within them, and so correct those incorrect thoughts as well, also, right?
Sure yes.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:08 pm
No. I just clear my mind on this subject.
Who and/or what is this 'you', which can just "clear its mind" on subjects?
I am a person.
So, the True, Right, Proper, Correct, and Accurate irrefutable answer to that, age old', question, 'Who am 'I'?' is "a person", correct?

If yes, then HOW does 'a person' "have a mind"?

HOW and WHERE is the "mind" in relation to 'a person', EXACTLY?

And, HOW can 'a person' ACTUALLY 'clear' "its mind"?

HOW did 'blockages' enter and stay "in the mind"?
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And what is this "mind" thing, which is NOT clear, and which 'you' can "just clear", for 'it'?
Mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience and cause.
Now, if you want to go down this track, then it is time to pose the questions to you of:

If the "mind" is of a 'substance' with the ability to experience and cause, but it is actually "a person" who is the one who "has a mind", then HOW EXACTLY has this "mind" thingy been experiencing and causing BEFORE persons came to exist?

And, what is the 'substance', EXACTLY, which the "mind" supposedly is?
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:08 pm
Ok.


Anyhing which has a mind.
What 'things', "have a mind".
Human for sure. Any alive things for sure too. I think that even a rock has a mind.
Well it would HAVE TO, to fit in with YOUR OTHER BELIEFS.

Now, what do rocks experience, and cause, all by their OWN selves?
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And do these "things" have the EXACT SAME "mind", or do these "things" have DIFFERENT "minds"?
They have different minds.
So, to 'you', which is "a person" "with a mind", there are as MANY "minds" as there are living things, and if rocks, to 'you', are living things, then that means EVERY thing is a living thing, unless OF COURSE your OWN "mind" experiences DIFFERENTLY and CAUSES 'you' to SPEAK and SAY DIFFERENTLY, correct.

Which brings 'us' two at least two CLARIFYING QUESTIONS here now;

1. Which "mind" KNOWS thee ACTUAL Truth of things? And,

2. If it is "minds", which ACTUALLY experience AND cause, then HOW could it be 'you', "a person" who CLEARS UP "your mind"?

Obviously, if it is "minds" that are experiencing and causing, then they would be CAUSE 'you' to SAY what 'it' has been EXPERIENCING.

So, WHAT are 'you', "a person", to be able to "clear up" the DISTORTS "within the mind"?

And, HOW, EXACTLY, could 'you' KNOW what is ACTUALLY true, right, and correct, when it is, supposedly, "these mind" things, which are supposedly doing the EXPERIENCING? What are 'you', "a person", basing what is right and wrong on EXACTLY if the "mind" is the one that ACTUALLY 'experiences' and NOT 'you'?

Also, HOW could 'you', "the person", do the work of unblocking and clearing up the DISTORTIONS and BLOCKAGES "within the mind", when it was 'you' who CLAIMS that it is these "minds", which do the CAUSING? Are 'you' here suggesting or proposing that the "mind" CAUSES 'you', "a person", to do the ACTUAL 'clearing up" in that "mind/its own self"?

If yes, then WHY would a "mind" obtain an OBSTRUCTION to begin with, if 'it" KNOWS that there is an OBSTRUCTION, which it then CAUSES 'you' to UNBLOCK?

If a "mind" KNOWS that "it", "itself", is BLOCKED or CONFUSED, and so that "it" NEEDS 'clearing up", by 'you', "a person", then OBVIOUSLY what CAUSED the OBSTRUCTION/CONFUSION would have come from what that "mind" has been EXPERIENCING, so then what ACTUALLY CAUSED that OBSTRUCTION/CONFUSION would have to have been some 'thing', which was being EXPERIENCED, correct?

And, if so, then how does this "mind", which 'you', "a person", HAS, DECIPHER between what IS RIGHT from WRONG in what "it" is ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING?
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, if things have different "minds", then how EXACTLY does one separate and distinguish BETWEEN these supposed different "minds"?
Different minds have different identities, they experience different things...
Do they?

So, HOW do 'you', as "a person", KNOW which experienced different things are Right from Wrong or Correct from Incorrect?

BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, what 'you' are SAYING could just be COMPLETELY and UTTERLY False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect, or, partly False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect, correct?

Or, can this NOT be correct because 'you' ARE ALWAYS Right AND Correct?
Age
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:26 pm
Age wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:37 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:21 pm
I didn't mean that I have nothing more to say.


Yes, it is nonsense to say that the reality is incoherent.


Minds and Qualia.
So, when you write and say, "reality", then what you are essentially saying and referring to is, "minds and qualia", correct?
Yes.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:21 pm
Minds have existed since the beginning.
Was there a "beginning", and when was that "beginning"?
Yes, there was a beginning. Big Bang.
The phrase "big bang" sounds like someone made it up as a joke, as a ridicule to and for those who BELIEVE that the WHOLE of Everything "just began".

It is EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that the phrase "big band" does NOT ACTUALLY say NOR ACTUALLY explain ABSOLUTELY ANY thing AT ALL, REALLY

Also, if that "mind", which 'you', "a person", supposedly HAS, and 'you' have ONLY been around for a few years, then HOW would that "mind" KNOW that there was "a beginning", that began with a "big bang"? And, what is the "big" word in relation to, EXACTLY?

Also, even IF "your" other ASSUMPTIONS or BELIEFS were even somewhat close to being ACTUALLY true, how could ANY 'mind" KNOW that there was a beginning IF ALL "minds" ONLY began AFTER the, so called, "beginning"?

And, do ANY of these, so called, "minds" have ABSOLUTELY ANY CLUE AT ALL of what could have CAUSED and CREATED this, so called, "beginning"?

Or, do ANY of "them" have A CLUE as to what or where this "beginning" came from, EXACTLY?

Or, are there REALLY some of these "minds" things that ACTUALLY BELIEVE that absolutely EVERY thing could have just "began" from ABSOLUTELY NO thing AT ALL, including "themselves"?

If yes, then what EXACTLY are "they" basing this BELIEF on?

bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am Also, how did that beginning begin, or start, and, who or what caused/created that "beginning"?
Minds existed at the beginning.
WHICH "minds"?

And, how does that "mind", which 'you', "one person", HAS, KNOW this? Especially considering the FACT that that "mind" has ONLY been around for RELATIVELY NOTHING a period of time?
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm Either Qualia existed at the beginning or not.
Well which one IS IT?

If the "mind", which 'you' HAVE KNOWS that there "was a beginning" and that there "were OTHER "minds" existing at that time", then SURELY "it" ALSO KNOWS EXACTLY what existed at the, so called, "beginning", correct?

IF NOT, then WHY NOT?
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
In the first case, minds experience Qualia and cause Qualia. So things started this way. In the second case, Qualia must pop into existence.
So, either way to that "mind", "minds" existed "at the beginning", or, "caused the beginning", correct?

If correct, then either way this just sounds like a "mind" being VERY 'egotistical' about 'its OWN self'. That is; 'it' is a "mind" and 'we', "minds", have been around FOREVER, either since the "beginning" or 'we' CREATED the "beginning of Everything".

Or, a part of, or NONE of, this is correct, which then I hope that "mind", through that body, will CORRECT what is NOT CORRECT HERE.
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am
So, to you "minds" and "qualia" experience, correct?
No, minds experience Qualia.
Okay, to "that mind", which 'you', "one person", has, "minds" experience qualia.
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am

This here sounds VERY CIRCULAR to me.

Anyway, IF this "mind" thing has the ability to perceive AND experience things, then, again, what is this "mind" thing, EXACTLY?
It is what it is.
Okay, Whatever these "minds" things ARE they are the THINGS, which experience THINGS, but which OBVIOUS do NOT experience their OWN selves, or if they do, then "they" have NOT WORKED OUT what "they", "themselves", ACTUALLY ARE, just YET, correct?
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm Mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experiences and causes Qualia.
But, "mind" also does NOT YET KNOW what this 'substance', which "it" is supposedly made up, is EITHER, correct?

Seems, contradictory, however, that a "thing", which can supposedly experience AND cause ALL things, still has ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE AT ALL, what "itself" ACTUALLY IS, nor what "itself" is even ACTUALLY made up of. So, HOW did this "thing" make "itself" up, if "it" does NOT even KNOW what "it" is, nor what "it' made "itself" up from?

How could "it" CAUSE/CREATE "itself", if "it" can NOT even experience "itself" and did NOT even KNOW what "it" used in "its" OWN creation of "itself"?

Some are SEEING and SUGGESTING that this made up "mind" thing, which 'you' CLAIM 'you' have one of, is making up this WHOLE story, out of NOTHING substantial AT ALL, or in other words this is being made up out of, literally, NO ACTUAL substance at all.
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:40 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Age wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:39 am
But you WILL have FURTHER thoughts, correct?
Sure yes.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, of those FURTHER thoughts, you WILL realize the mistakes within them, and so correct those incorrect thoughts as well, also, right?
Sure yes.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
Who and/or what is this 'you', which can just "clear its mind" on subjects?
I am a person.
So, the True, Right, Proper, Correct, and Accurate irrefutable answer to that, age old', question, 'Who am 'I'?' is "a person", correct?
Yes.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am If yes, then HOW does 'a person' "have a mind"?
How question is meaningless. A mindless person does not exist.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am HOW and WHERE is the "mind" in relation to 'a person', EXACTLY?
A person has a mind and a body. The mind is in relation to the body. Where is the mind? It could be non-local, omnipresent or it could be local.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, HOW can 'a person' ACTUALLY 'clear' "its mind"?
When s/he find the answer to all questions.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am HOW did 'blockages' enter and stay "in the mind"?
People are exposed to the wrong beliefs always.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And what is this "mind" thing, which is NOT clear, and which 'you' can "just clear", for 'it'?
Mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience and cause.
Now, if you want to go down this track, then it is time to pose the questions to you of:

If the "mind" is of a 'substance' with the ability to experience and cause, but it is actually "a person" who is the one who "has a mind", then HOW EXACTLY has this "mind" thingy been experiencing and causing BEFORE persons came to exist?
Mind is not a person. A person has a mind. There would be no change without a mind. Changes have existed since the beginning.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, what is the 'substance', EXACTLY, which the "mind" supposedly is?
The substance is something that exists and can affect reality. There are two kind of substances, mind and Qualia.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
What 'things', "have a mind".
Human for sure. Any alive things for sure too. I think that even a rock has a mind.
Well it would HAVE TO, to fit in with YOUR OTHER BELIEFS.

Now, what do rocks experience, and cause, all by their OWN selves?
A rock experiences external forces. What does it cause? Kick a big rock to see that it kick you back.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And do these "things" have the EXACT SAME "mind", or do these "things" have DIFFERENT "minds"?
They have different minds.
So, to 'you', which is "a person" "with a mind", there are as MANY "minds" as there are living things, and if rocks, to 'you', are living things, then that means EVERY thing is a living thing, unless OF COURSE your OWN "mind" experiences DIFFERENTLY and CAUSES 'you' to SPEAK and SAY DIFFERENTLY, correct.
Rock is not alive, it cannot reproduce, eat, etc.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Which brings 'us' two at least two CLARIFYING QUESTIONS here now;

1. Which "mind" KNOWS thee ACTUAL Truth of things? And,
There are minds who know the absolute truth.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am 2. If it is "minds", which ACTUALLY experience AND cause, then HOW could it be 'you', "a person" who CLEARS UP "your mind"?
I know only a part of the truth. I have never said that I know all the truth.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Obviously, if it is "minds" that are experiencing and causing, then they would be CAUSE 'you' to SAY what 'it' has been EXPERIENCING.
Experiencing is required for coherence. The reality is coherent. Therefore, mind expereinces.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am So, WHAT are 'you', "a person", to be able to "clear up" the DISTORTS "within the mind"?
A person is a mind and a body.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, HOW, EXACTLY, could 'you' KNOW what is ACTUALLY true, right, and correct, when it is, supposedly, "these mind" things, which are supposedly doing the EXPERIENCING? What are 'you', "a person", basing what is right and wrong on EXACTLY if the "mind" is the one that ACTUALLY 'experiences' and NOT 'you'?
Through the coherence in my system of belief. If something is not coherent then it cannot be true. Otherwise it is true.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Also, HOW could 'you', "the person", do the work of unblocking and clearing up the DISTORTIONS and BLOCKAGES "within the mind", when it was 'you' who CLAIMS that it is these "minds", which do the CAUSING?
Through the coherence as it is stated.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Are 'you' here suggesting or proposing that the "mind" CAUSES 'you', "a person", to do the ACTUAL 'clearing up" in that "mind/its own self"?
My mind doesn't cause me. You need to think in order to clear up your mind.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am If yes, then WHY would a "mind" obtain an OBSTRUCTION to begin with, if 'it" KNOWS that there is an OBSTRUCTION, which it then CAUSES 'you' to UNBLOCK?
Persons simply don't know everything. What they know also could be partly wrong and partly right.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am If a "mind" KNOWS that "it", "itself", is BLOCKED or CONFUSED, and so that "it" NEEDS 'clearing up", by 'you', "a person", then OBVIOUSLY what CAUSED the OBSTRUCTION/CONFUSION would have come from what that "mind" has been EXPERIENCING, so then what ACTUALLY CAUSED that OBSTRUCTION/CONFUSION would have to have been some 'thing', which was being EXPERIENCED, correct?
Yes. When something is not coherent then we have to find the error in what we accepted.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, if so, then how does this "mind", which 'you', "a person", HAS, DECIPHER between what IS RIGHT from WRONG in what "it" is ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING?
Through the coherence. A wrong belief eventually leads to incoherence.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, if things have different "minds", then how EXACTLY does one separate and distinguish BETWEEN these supposed different "minds"?
Different minds have different identities, they experience different things...
Do they?
Yes.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am So, HOW do 'you', as "a person", KNOW which experienced different things are Right from Wrong or Correct from Incorrect?
I already answered that.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, what 'you' are SAYING could just be COMPLETELY and UTTERLY False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect, or, partly False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect, correct?
What I said in this post is correct unless you find incoherence within it.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Or, can this NOT be correct because 'you' ARE ALWAYS Right AND Correct?
I have never said that I am always correct.
Age
Posts: 7794
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:40 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Sure yes.


Sure yes.


I am a person.
So, the True, Right, Proper, Correct, and Accurate irrefutable answer to that, age old', question, 'Who am 'I'?' is "a person", correct?
Yes.
Okay. This now explains WHY you have such a distorted view of things.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am If yes, then HOW does 'a person' "have a mind"?
How question is meaningless.
When one of 'you', human beings, CLAIM that HOW questions are meaningless, and do NOT even think about the question, then this REVEALS that that one has absolutely NO idea and NO clue AT ALL.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm A mindless person does not exist.
LOL Okay. Just out of curiosity, is this an IRREFUTABLE Truth?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am HOW and WHERE is the "mind" in relation to 'a person', EXACTLY?
A person has a mind and a body. The mind is in relation to the body. Where is the mind? It could be non-local, omnipresent or it could be local.
Besides the "mind" OBVIOUSLY being in relation to the body, the rest of what you wrote CONTRADICTS what you have previously written.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, HOW can 'a person' ACTUALLY 'clear' "its mind"?
When s/he find the answer to all questions.
BUT you CLAIM it is the "mind" that does the experiencing, and therefore the knowledge gathering.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am HOW did 'blockages' enter and stay "in the mind"?
People are exposed to the wrong beliefs always.[/quote]

Could you have been exposed to wrong beliefs, which you UNKNOWINGLY have right now, and which you are also expressing, and thus exposing to "other" people?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience and cause.
Now, if you want to go down this track, then it is time to pose the questions to you of:

If the "mind" is of a 'substance' with the ability to experience and cause, but it is actually "a person" who is the one who "has a mind", then HOW EXACTLY has this "mind" thingy been experiencing and causing BEFORE persons came to exist?
Mind is not a person. A person has a mind. There would be no change without a mind. Changes have existed since the beginning.
Can you REALLY NOT SEE the CONTRADICTIONS here?

AND, IF it take a "person" to have a "mind", then OBVIOUSLY there were NO "minds" existing BEFORE 'you' people did, which OBVIOUSLY was WAY AFTER what is considered "the beginning".
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, what is the 'substance', EXACTLY, which the "mind" supposedly is?
The substance is something that exists and can affect reality. There are two kind of substances, mind and Qualia.
So, to you, the 'substance' of the "mind" is some 'thing', and, there are two kind of substances, one being "mind", which means the substance of "mind" is "mind", itself.

Which is, CLEARLY, VERY CIRCULAR reasoning.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Human for sure. Any alive things for sure too. I think that even a rock has a mind.
Well it would HAVE TO, to fit in with YOUR OTHER BELIEFS.

Now, what do rocks experience, and cause, all by their OWN selves?
A rock experiences external forces. What does it cause? Kick a big rock to see that it kick you back.
WHAT?

I have NEVER OBSERVE ANY rock "kicking", unless, of course, it was a human being with the name "rock", and then I have OBSERVED those "rocks" kicking.

But what you ACTUALLY MEAN by 'experience' is that there just is external forces on matter, correct?

Although, matter is 'experiencing' external forces matter is NOT KNOWING that this is going on, is this correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
They have different minds.
So, to 'you', which is "a person" "with a mind", there are as MANY "minds" as there are living things, and if rocks, to 'you', are living things, then that means EVERY thing is a living thing, unless OF COURSE your OWN "mind" experiences DIFFERENTLY and CAUSES 'you' to SPEAK and SAY DIFFERENTLY, correct.
Rock is not alive, it cannot reproduce, eat, etc.
So, to you, ONLY if a thing can reproduce and eat, and do some other things, then ONLY then those things are living, correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Which brings 'us' two at least two CLARIFYING QUESTIONS here now;

1. Which "mind" KNOWS thee ACTUAL Truth of things? And,
There are minds who know the absolute truth.
Okay, I will REPEAT my CLARIFY QUESTION, WHICH ONES KNOW the ABSOLUTE Truth?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am 2. If it is "minds", which ACTUALLY experience AND cause, then HOW could it be 'you', "a person" who CLEARS UP "your mind"?
I know only a part of the truth. I have never said that I know all the truth.
And I OBVIOUSLY NEVER said that you did.

And what is being OBSERVED here is you just, attempting, DEFLECTION.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Obviously, if it is "minds" that are experiencing and causing, then they would be CAUSE 'you' to SAY what 'it' has been EXPERIENCING.
Experiencing is required for coherence. The reality is coherent. Therefore, mind expereinces.
Besides this being CIRCULAR, UNSOUND, INVALID, it is ALSO, ABSOLUTELY ABSURD and RIDICULOUS, to say the least.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am So, WHAT are 'you', "a person", to be able to "clear up" the DISTORTS "within the mind"?
A person is a mind and a body.
DEFLECTION.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, HOW, EXACTLY, could 'you' KNOW what is ACTUALLY true, right, and correct, when it is, supposedly, "these mind" things, which are supposedly doing the EXPERIENCING? What are 'you', "a person", basing what is right and wrong on EXACTLY if the "mind" is the one that ACTUALLY 'experiences' and NOT 'you'?
Through the coherence in my system of belief. If something is not coherent then it cannot be true. Otherwise it is true.
But it is true to 'you', and NOT necessarily true to ANY thing else, correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Also, HOW could 'you', "the person", do the work of unblocking and clearing up the DISTORTIONS and BLOCKAGES "within the mind", when it was 'you' who CLAIMS that it is these "minds", which do the CAUSING?
Through the coherence as it is stated.
ABSURD and ILLOGICAL.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Are 'you' here suggesting or proposing that the "mind" CAUSES 'you', "a person", to do the ACTUAL 'clearing up" in that "mind/its own self"?
My mind doesn't cause me. You need to think in order to clear up your mind.
But YOU TOLD US it is the "mind" that experiences, and causes.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am If yes, then WHY would a "mind" obtain an OBSTRUCTION to begin with, if 'it" KNOWS that there is an OBSTRUCTION, which it then CAUSES 'you' to UNBLOCK?
Persons simply don't know everything.
Okay.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pmWhat they know also could be partly wrong and partly right.
So, what 'you', "bahman", are saying here could be partly wrong and partly right, correct?

Could ANY thing you be saying here be completely wrong?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am If a "mind" KNOWS that "it", "itself", is BLOCKED or CONFUSED, and so that "it" NEEDS 'clearing up", by 'you', "a person", then OBVIOUSLY what CAUSED the OBSTRUCTION/CONFUSION would have come from what that "mind" has been EXPERIENCING, so then what ACTUALLY CAUSED that OBSTRUCTION/CONFUSION would have to have been some 'thing', which was being EXPERIENCED, correct?
Yes. When something is not coherent then we have to find the error in what we accepted.
So, the things that you are saying here, which are OBVIOUSLY 'not coherent, then 'you' just HAVE TO find the error in what you accepted, correct?

The errorS, by the way, have ALREADY BEEN FOUND, if you are at all interested.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, if so, then how does this "mind", which 'you', "a person", HAS, DECIPHER between what IS RIGHT from WRONG in what "it" is ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING?
Through the coherence. A wrong belief eventually leads to incoherence.
Therefore, the reason WHY what you are saying is SO INCOHERENT.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Different minds have different identities, they experience different things...
Do they?
Yes.
What are some of the names of some of these, supposed, different "identities", to "minds"?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am So, HOW do 'you', as "a person", KNOW which experienced different things are Right from Wrong or Correct from Incorrect?
I already answered that.
Which you ADMIT could be WRONG, correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, what 'you' are SAYING could just be COMPLETELY and UTTERLY False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect, or, partly False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect, correct?
What I said in this post is correct unless you find incoherence within it.
I have ALREADY FOUND a LOT of INCOHERENCE within your post.

Therefore, SOME of what you said is INCORRECT.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Or, can this NOT be correct because 'you' ARE ALWAYS Right AND Correct?
I have never said that I am always correct.
I KNOW.

And I NEVER said that you are always correct.

The reason WHY I asked you this question was to ASCERTAIN your views.
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Sculptor
Posts: 3708
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Sculptor »

philosopher wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:47 pm Let me begin this topic with saying that I want you to tear my arguments apart, by logical and scientific deduction and reasoning.
I want a scientific debate about this topic, not pseudoscience or crap philosophy.

That might be easy, and eventually I'd be able to do that myself just not at the moment as of writing this.

Maybe I lack some understanding of basic quantum physics, and that's very much a possibility.
So please explain my errors.

Let's start:

----

When you feel your "you-ness" - you thoughts, emotions and general personality all in one person with everything from your own thoughts, to your hallucinations and your irrational behavior to your illusion of you having a free will etc. it is because of electrical and chemical signals being transfered from one neuron to another in a complex network we call "a brain", a brain that is alive and self-conscious, that is.

We call the sum of all these activities "consciousness", even though we all know that the signals traveling from one neuron to another happens at the speed of light or below. There is a delay, so to speak.

We don't (usually) think of ourselves as being departed or having to wait for a signal to arrive from one neuron to the next before we... think.

What I'm trying to say is that we look at our consciousness as the totality of a system, inseperable elements, by which we cannot look at one element without looking at another element as well.

This is very much the same way physicists understand Quantum Entanglement: Two entangled particles share the same system, meaning when you measure one particle the other is instantly affected. No signal has traveled between the two, yet every modern experiment has concluded the same thing, which is that the particles interfere with each other over infinite distances.

To understand a quantum system of entanglement, you need to look at the system as a whole. The totality, the sum, so to speak. You cannot understand one particle in a quantum system without simultanously understand everything there is to know about the other particle.

While our brains are indeed too hot to control quantum physics (physicists has to cool down the experiment to near absolute zero to build quantum computers that are useful for calculations) we can still draw similarities between the two systems:

A biological brain where quantum physics plays no role (it does play a role as your brain is made of the same type of particles physicists do quantum experiments with, but it cannot control quantum behavior because the brain is too hot, so the quantum effects are more unpredictable and uncontrollable than in a physics lab), yet still needs to be understood the same way ie. as a system of wholeness - like a quantum system.

Now, if we were to imagine a multiverse with a very large, perhaps infinite amount of other universes, and we then imagine each universe sending a signal from one universe to another, either by traditional light travel (which may take billions of years) or as a system of entangled universes interfering with each other's properties meaning one universe depends on another, and then imagine each universe playing the same role as subatomic particles, is it then possible to have some of those universes in a network of an entangled (not neccessarily quantum entangled, just entangled in a network) system making up a pattern of behavior that is similar or even identical to a living, self-conscious human brain?

Of course it would take billions of years for this gigantic network of entangled universes to even send and recieve a signal producing a conscious feeling of "huh?" - but it has an infinite amount of time to think greater thoughts, and even more infinite amount of time coming up with the greatest idea of the multiverse, realizing it and creating an "artificial universe" with multiversal AI-self consciousness.

Am I talking nonsense? If so, please explain it to me what errors in my thinking I'm making.
This all seems very idle speculation on a topic with no merit whatever.
Theories are usually an answer to some problem. This is a solution looking for a problem that does not exist so has no merit in terms of Ockham's parsimony.
The evidence suggests that consciousness, as far as we can see evidence of it, is only observable in complex systems which have healthy neural matter; animals.
The matter of the universe is chaotic and undifferentiated bearing no resemblance to living systems.
Last edited by Sculptor on Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Terrapin Station »

philosopher wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:33 pm
Why did you never respond to my last post addressed to you in this thread?
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bahman
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:43 am
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:40 am
So, the True, Right, Proper, Correct, and Accurate irrefutable answer to that, age old', question, 'Who am 'I'?' is "a person", correct?
Yes.
Okay. This now explains WHY you have such a distorted view of things.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am If yes, then HOW does 'a person' "have a mind"?
How question is meaningless.
When one of 'you', human beings, CLAIM that HOW questions are meaningless, and do NOT even think about the question, then this REVEALS that that one has absolutely NO idea and NO clue AT ALL.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm A mindless person does not exist.
LOL Okay. Just out of curiosity, is this an IRREFUTABLE Truth?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am HOW and WHERE is the "mind" in relation to 'a person', EXACTLY?
A person has a mind and a body. The mind is in relation to the body. Where is the mind? It could be non-local, omnipresent or it could be local.
Besides the "mind" OBVIOUSLY being in relation to the body, the rest of what you wrote CONTRADICTS what you have previously written.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, HOW can 'a person' ACTUALLY 'clear' "its mind"?
When s/he find the answer to all questions.
BUT you CLAIM it is the "mind" that does the experiencing, and therefore the knowledge gathering.
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am HOW did 'blockages' enter and stay "in the mind"?
People are exposed to the wrong beliefs always.
Could you have been exposed to wrong beliefs, which you UNKNOWINGLY have right now, and which you are also expressing, and thus exposing to "other" people?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
Now, if you want to go down this track, then it is time to pose the questions to you of:

If the "mind" is of a 'substance' with the ability to experience and cause, but it is actually "a person" who is the one who "has a mind", then HOW EXACTLY has this "mind" thingy been experiencing and causing BEFORE persons came to exist?
Mind is not a person. A person has a mind. There would be no change without a mind. Changes have existed since the beginning.
Can you REALLY NOT SEE the CONTRADICTIONS here?

AND, IF it take a "person" to have a "mind", then OBVIOUSLY there were NO "minds" existing BEFORE 'you' people did, which OBVIOUSLY was WAY AFTER what is considered "the beginning".
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, what is the 'substance', EXACTLY, which the "mind" supposedly is?
The substance is something that exists and can affect reality. There are two kind of substances, mind and Qualia.
So, to you, the 'substance' of the "mind" is some 'thing', and, there are two kind of substances, one being "mind", which means the substance of "mind" is "mind", itself.

Which is, CLEARLY, VERY CIRCULAR reasoning.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
Well it would HAVE TO, to fit in with YOUR OTHER BELIEFS.

Now, what do rocks experience, and cause, all by their OWN selves?
A rock experiences external forces. What does it cause? Kick a big rock to see that it kick you back.
WHAT?

I have NEVER OBSERVE ANY rock "kicking", unless, of course, it was a human being with the name "rock", and then I have OBSERVED those "rocks" kicking.

But what you ACTUALLY MEAN by 'experience' is that there just is external forces on matter, correct?

Although, matter is 'experiencing' external forces matter is NOT KNOWING that this is going on, is this correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
So, to 'you', which is "a person" "with a mind", there are as MANY "minds" as there are living things, and if rocks, to 'you', are living things, then that means EVERY thing is a living thing, unless OF COURSE your OWN "mind" experiences DIFFERENTLY and CAUSES 'you' to SPEAK and SAY DIFFERENTLY, correct.
Rock is not alive, it cannot reproduce, eat, etc.
So, to you, ONLY if a thing can reproduce and eat, and do some other things, then ONLY then those things are living, correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Which brings 'us' two at least two CLARIFYING QUESTIONS here now;

1. Which "mind" KNOWS thee ACTUAL Truth of things? And,
There are minds who know the absolute truth.
Okay, I will REPEAT my CLARIFY QUESTION, WHICH ONES KNOW the ABSOLUTE Truth?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am 2. If it is "minds", which ACTUALLY experience AND cause, then HOW could it be 'you', "a person" who CLEARS UP "your mind"?
I know only a part of the truth. I have never said that I know all the truth.
And I OBVIOUSLY NEVER said that you did.

And what is being OBSERVED here is you just, attempting, DEFLECTION.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Obviously, if it is "minds" that are experiencing and causing, then they would be CAUSE 'you' to SAY what 'it' has been EXPERIENCING.
Experiencing is required for coherence. The reality is coherent. Therefore, mind expereinces.
Besides this being CIRCULAR, UNSOUND, INVALID, it is ALSO, ABSOLUTELY ABSURD and RIDICULOUS, to say the least.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am So, WHAT are 'you', "a person", to be able to "clear up" the DISTORTS "within the mind"?
A person is a mind and a body.
DEFLECTION.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, HOW, EXACTLY, could 'you' KNOW what is ACTUALLY true, right, and correct, when it is, supposedly, "these mind" things, which are supposedly doing the EXPERIENCING? What are 'you', "a person", basing what is right and wrong on EXACTLY if the "mind" is the one that ACTUALLY 'experiences' and NOT 'you'?
Through the coherence in my system of belief. If something is not coherent then it cannot be true. Otherwise it is true.
But it is true to 'you', and NOT necessarily true to ANY thing else, correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Also, HOW could 'you', "the person", do the work of unblocking and clearing up the DISTORTIONS and BLOCKAGES "within the mind", when it was 'you' who CLAIMS that it is these "minds", which do the CAUSING?
Through the coherence as it is stated.
ABSURD and ILLOGICAL.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Are 'you' here suggesting or proposing that the "mind" CAUSES 'you', "a person", to do the ACTUAL 'clearing up" in that "mind/its own self"?
My mind doesn't cause me. You need to think in order to clear up your mind.
But YOU TOLD US it is the "mind" that experiences, and causes.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am If yes, then WHY would a "mind" obtain an OBSTRUCTION to begin with, if 'it" KNOWS that there is an OBSTRUCTION, which it then CAUSES 'you' to UNBLOCK?
Persons simply don't know everything.
Okay.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pmWhat they know also could be partly wrong and partly right.
So, what 'you', "bahman", are saying here could be partly wrong and partly right, correct?

Could ANY thing you be saying here be completely wrong?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am If a "mind" KNOWS that "it", "itself", is BLOCKED or CONFUSED, and so that "it" NEEDS 'clearing up", by 'you', "a person", then OBVIOUSLY what CAUSED the OBSTRUCTION/CONFUSION would have come from what that "mind" has been EXPERIENCING, so then what ACTUALLY CAUSED that OBSTRUCTION/CONFUSION would have to have been some 'thing', which was being EXPERIENCED, correct?
Yes. When something is not coherent then we have to find the error in what we accepted.
So, the things that you are saying here, which are OBVIOUSLY 'not coherent, then 'you' just HAVE TO find the error in what you accepted, correct?

The errorS, by the way, have ALREADY BEEN FOUND, if you are at all interested.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am And, if so, then how does this "mind", which 'you', "a person", HAS, DECIPHER between what IS RIGHT from WRONG in what "it" is ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING?
Through the coherence. A wrong belief eventually leads to incoherence.
Therefore, the reason WHY what you are saying is SO INCOHERENT.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am
Do they?
Yes.
What are some of the names of some of these, supposed, different "identities", to "minds"?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am So, HOW do 'you', as "a person", KNOW which experienced different things are Right from Wrong or Correct from Incorrect?
I already answered that.
Which you ADMIT could be WRONG, correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, what 'you' are SAYING could just be COMPLETELY and UTTERLY False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect, or, partly False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect, correct?
What I said in this post is correct unless you find incoherence within it.
I have ALREADY FOUND a LOT of INCOHERENCE within your post.

Therefore, SOME of what you said is INCORRECT.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:53 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:26 am Or, can this NOT be correct because 'you' ARE ALWAYS Right AND Correct?
I have never said that I am always correct.
I KNOW.

And I NEVER said that you are always correct.

The reason WHY I asked you this question was to ASCERTAIN your views.
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I really don't have time to get through this. Sorry. You don't even understand the difference between definition and proof. When I say that person is mind and body that means by definition!
Age
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:53 pm I really don't have time to get through this.
'you' MUST BE a VERY BUSY 'person' then.
bahman wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:53 pmSorry.
'you' do NOT have to be "sorry" for being such a VERY BUSY 'person'.

'you', people, seem to always be just TO BUSY to LOOK AT and DISCUSS 'things' FULLY, and PROPERLY, anyway.

This is because you are ALL just TO BUSY, doing whatever 'it' is that you are ACTUALLY DOING?

Are you doing ANY thing that is Truly IMPORTANT?

If yes, then WHAT?
bahman wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:53 pmYou don't even understand the difference between definition and proof.
Well this is ONE HUGE CLAIM that 'you' have here. Will 'you' SHARE with 'us' what PROOF 'you' ACTUALLY HAVE for this CLAIM of YOURS?
bahman wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:53 pmWhen I say that person is mind and body that means by definition!
But when you say "mind", which is OBVIOUSLY HALF, or PART OF, 'person', has been around since the beginning, then what does that MEAN, by definition?

Or, do you NOT have "the time" to ANSWER this CLARIFYING QUESTION, as well?
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