## Does The Singularity Exist?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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socrat44
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### Does The Singularity Exist?

Does The Singularity Exist?

Singularity is a point in spacetime where incredible amount of matter is compressed into a tiny space of zero size and infinite density.
But, the question is, ” Does it exist?”

Singularity is not a physical object, it is a mathematical entity. It arises when the denominator is zero. We all know we cannot divide by zero, so that’s a problem and mathematicians call that value singularity. If a singularity popes up in an equation, it means that the equation has been to make predictions in areas where it doesn’t cover like using Newton’s Gravitational Equation to describe a black hole.

General Relativity fails at the quantum scale and needs to be replaced by Quantum Theory of Gravity which we don’t have.

https://knowledgeglutton.home.blog/2021 ... comment-21
Age
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

socrat44 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:54 am Does The Singularity Exist?
When you say, " 'The' Singularity " are referring to one particular thing?

If yes, then what thing?

And saying, "Exist", implies 'at present'.

If you meant, 'did exist', then I suggest saying what you meant, and mean, instead.
socrat44 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:54 am Singularity is a point in spacetime where incredible amount of matter is compressed into a tiny space of zero size and infinite density.
But, the question is, ” Does it exist?”
ALL of matter could possibly be compressed into a size, with infinite density.

Saying, "zero size" in regards to matter is nonsensical.

If someone uses the misnomer "spacetime", then I suggest they explain what that term means, to them.

The words 'incredible amount' could mean just about ANY amount, so can you be ANY CLEARER?

And, what is 'tiny space', EXACTLY, to you?
socrat44 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:54 am Singularity is not a physical object, it is a mathematical entity.
If 'singularity' is NOT a physical object, then WHY say that 'singularity' is a point where an incredible amount of MATTER is compressed.

If 'compressed matter' is NOT a physical object, then I think you will find that you are somewhat MISTAKEN.
socrat44 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:54 am It arises when the denominator is zero. We all know we cannot divide by zero, so that’s a problem and mathematicians call that value singularity. If a singularity popes up in an equation, it means that the equation has been to make predictions in areas where it doesn’t cover like using Newton’s Gravitational Equation to describe a black hole.

General Relativity fails at the quantum scale and needs to be replaced by Quantum Theory of Gravity which we don’t have.

https://knowledgeglutton.home.blog/2021 ... comment-21
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

Terrapin Station
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

The idea of anything real that's zero dimensional is incoherent, and there's not going to be anything with infinite density, either.

There are a lot of bad ontological claims made by physicists based on reifying mathematics.

Could there be something unusually dense and small, though? Sure.
gaffo
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

socrat44 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:54 am Does The Singularity Exist?

Singularity is a point in spacetime where incredible amount of matter is compressed into a tiny space of zero size and infinite density.
But, the question is, ” Does it exist?”

Singularity is not a physical object, it is a mathematical entity. It arises when the denominator is zero. We all know we cannot divide by zero, so that’s a problem and mathematicians call that value singularity. If a singularity popes up in an equation, it means that the equation has been to make predictions in areas where it doesn’t cover like using Newton’s Gravitational Equation to describe a black hole.

General Relativity fails at the quantum scale and needs to be replaced by Quantum Theory of Gravity which we don’t have.

https://knowledgeglutton.home.blog/2021 ... comment-21
there is not quantum fix - all fail from your quant th of grav to relativeity to newton.

all fail.

daal with ti.
gaffo
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:41 pm

Could there be something unusually dense and small, though? Sure.
i suspect this is the case - maths fail - but suspect there is a "thing" - matter of some sort with a "size" (in some dimension - might not be in 3 - we are talking about an extreme environment here.

its nature?" no way to know via Maths - nor without going into the event horizon - and when you do so and then "know" you can't get out to tell the rest of us!!!

lol.

I think we can make a few meager assumptions - very meager ones - but better than nothing

1. we know that the weakest force - gravity becomes the stongest with mass accumulation and when there is enough mass collected that weakest force overides all others - incudlign the strong force. Neutron stars overide all forces except the strong force.
2. when the excape velocity exceeeds the speed of light there is no empiriscism by definition to understand the nature of the singularity. outside of one going into to know - can't come out to tell - so only solution is to either assume man is too dumb to ever kow, or assume man may know in the future - post quantum/rel/newton/etc--- unified theory - and so a new maths and new minds - maybe a new man - to be able to know - oustide of personally traveling inside of singularity.

3. the "matter" (I don't think its just matter at this point - its "somehting" beyond the strong force - so atomic ucleili implode into a form beyond "matter" as we understand it.

4 however that "matter" still retains mass - so the nature of mass is more fundamental than matter. - i.e. so a "thing" that has broken all the forces incluiding the strong force - so atoms are gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - that thing no longer has atom, it still has mass.

5. we know it retains mass - because it sucks in all tings around it!!!!!!!!!!!! so refer to 4 above.

6. I don' think siz - so and so BH sigularity is a golf ball size/etc.......is relivent. it might, or maybe the nature of reality in that "space" is so alien as to not offer the concept of siz. we cannot know.

7. we do know that somhow gravity can transend space - how einstain? - when space is closed due to gravity - how can a HB cut off by the rest of the universe still have gravitational effect on the the universe outside of it????????

that is the question! somehow the weakest force can travel beyond the light bearer of the bhe Event horizon and still have en effect on the rest of normal matter? yet at the same time cutt off from the universe? odd for sure.
vegetariantaxidermy
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

If the maths says it exists then it exists. That's the way of the universe.
Age
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:41 pm

Could there be something unusually dense and small, though? Sure.
i suspect this is the case - maths fail - but suspect there is a "thing" - matter of some sort with a "size" (in some dimension - might not be in 3 - we are talking about an extreme environment here.

its nature?" no way to know via Maths - nor without going into the event horizon - and when you do so and then "know" you can't get out to tell the rest of us!!!

lol.
WHERE does this BELIEF that "THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW" come from EXACTLY?

Do 'you', adult human beings, REALLY BELIEVE that if 'you' have NOT YET come to KNOWN something, within your own, individual or collective, existence, then "THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW", forever more?

Look, 'to KNOW', can be, and IS DONE, through LOGICAL REASONING.

Also, it was NOT an "extreme environment" AT ALL. All it was was just a 'different environment' from what 'you' are used to.
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm I think we can make a few meager assumptions - very meager ones - but better than nothing
But WHY make ANY 'assumption' AT ALL? Especially considering the FACT that we can just LOOK AT and DISCUSS, only, what thee ACTUAL Truth IS, alone.
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm 1. we know that the weakest force - gravity becomes the stongest with mass accumulation and when there is enough mass collected that weakest force overides all others - incudlign the strong force. Neutron stars overide all forces except the strong force.
2. when the excape velocity exceeeds the speed of light there is no empiriscism by definition to understand the nature of the singularity.
What are you trying to say here in the first nine words? They do not make sense to me.

When 'what' escapes, velocity exceeds the speed of light?

The saying, "there is empiricism, by definition, to understand the nature of the singularity", is also just a CLAIM, which is based on NOTHING but the ASSUMPTION that "there is NO WAY to KNOW", which is CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY Wrong, in and of itself.

The use of the 'the' word here is also Wrong usage.

Now, to UNDERSTAND and KNOW the True nature of singularity, contrary to popular BELIEF, is about one of the most simplest things that can be done.
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm outside of one going into to know - can't come out to tell - so only solution is to either assume man is too dumb to ever kow, or assume man may know in the future - post quantum/rel/newton/etc--- unified theory - and so a new maths and new minds - maybe a new man - to be able to know - oustide of personally traveling inside of singularity.

3. the "matter" (I don't think its just matter at this point - its "somehting" beyond the strong force - so atomic ucleili implode into a form beyond "matter" as we understand it.
If you 'it' is NOT matter, than what else could 'it' possibly be.
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm 4 however that "matter" still retains mass - so the nature of mass is more fundamental than matter. - i.e. so a "thing" that has broken all the forces incluiding the strong force - so atoms are gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - that thing no longer has atom, it still has mass.
What are you basing that CLAIM "atoms are gone" on EXACTLY?
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm 5. we know it retains mass - because it sucks in all tings around it!!!!!!!!!!!! so refer to 4 above.

6. I don' think siz - so and so BH sigularity is a golf ball size/etc.......is relivent. it might, or maybe the nature of reality in that "space" is so alien as to not offer the concept of siz. we cannot know.

7. we do know that somhow gravity can transend space - how einstain? - when space is closed due to gravity - how can a HB cut off by the rest of the universe still have gravitational effect on the the universe outside of it????????

that is the question! somehow the weakest force can travel beyond the light bearer of the bhe Event horizon and still have en effect on the rest of normal matter? yet at the same time cutt off from the universe? odd for sure.
How could ANY thing be "cut off" from thee Universe, Itself?
gaffo
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:05 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:41 pm

Could there be something unusually dense and small, though? Sure.
i suspect this is the case - maths fail - but suspect there is a "thing" - matter of some sort with a "size" (in some dimension - might not be in 3 - we are talking about an extreme environment here.

its nature?" no way to know via Maths - nor without going into the event horizon - and when you do so and then "know" you can't get out to tell the rest of us!!!

lol.
WHERE does this BELIEF that "THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW" come from EXACTLY?

Do 'you', adult human beings, REALLY BELIEVE that if 'you' have NOT YET come to KNOWN something, within your own, individual or collective, existence, then "THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW", forever more?

Look, 'to KNOW', can be, and IS DONE, through LOGICAL REASONING.

Also, it was NOT an "extreme environment" AT ALL. All it was was just a 'different environment' from what 'you' are used to.
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm I think we can make a few meager assumptions - very meager ones - but better than nothing
But WHY make ANY 'assumption' AT ALL? Especially considering the FACT that we can just LOOK AT and DISCUSS, only, what thee ACTUAL Truth IS, alone.
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm 1. we know that the weakest force - gravity becomes the stongest with mass accumulation and when there is enough mass collected that weakest force overides all others - incudlign the strong force. Neutron stars overide all forces except the strong force.
2. when the excape velocity exceeeds the speed of light there is no empiriscism by definition to understand the nature of the singularity.
What are you trying to say here in the first nine words? They do not make sense to me.

When 'what' escapes, velocity exceeds the speed of light?

The saying, "there is empiricism, by definition, to understand the nature of the singularity", is also just a CLAIM, which is based on NOTHING but the ASSUMPTION that "there is NO WAY to KNOW", which is CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY Wrong, in and of itself.

The use of the 'the' word here is also Wrong usage.

Now, to UNDERSTAND and KNOW the True nature of singularity, contrary to popular BELIEF, is about one of the most simplest things that can be done.
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm outside of one going into to know - can't come out to tell - so only solution is to either assume man is too dumb to ever kow, or assume man may know in the future - post quantum/rel/newton/etc--- unified theory - and so a new maths and new minds - maybe a new man - to be able to know - oustide of personally traveling inside of singularity.

3. the "matter" (I don't think its just matter at this point - its "somehting" beyond the strong force - so atomic ucleili implode into a form beyond "matter" as we understand it.
If you 'it' is NOT matter, than what else could 'it' possibly be.
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm 4 however that "matter" still retains mass - so the nature of mass is more fundamental than matter. - i.e. so a "thing" that has broken all the forces incluiding the strong force - so atoms are gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - that thing no longer has atom, it still has mass.
What are you basing that CLAIM "atoms are gone" on EXACTLY?
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm 5. we know it retains mass - because it sucks in all tings around it!!!!!!!!!!!! so refer to 4 above.

6. I don' think siz - so and so BH sigularity is a golf ball size/etc.......is relivent. it might, or maybe the nature of reality in that "space" is so alien as to not offer the concept of siz. we cannot know.

7. we do know that somhow gravity can transend space - how einstain? - when space is closed due to gravity - how can a HB cut off by the rest of the universe still have gravitational effect on the the universe outside of it????????

that is the question! somehow the weakest force can travel beyond the light bearer of the bhe Event horizon and still have en effect on the rest of normal matter? yet at the same time cutt off from the universe? odd for sure.
How could ANY thing be "cut off" from thee Universe, Itself?
man is just an animal. its likely he lack the ability to know the natur \e of a siglarity as a cat know the nature of human speach - humility is one of the the virtues - try it sometime.
Age
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

gaffo wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:24 am
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:05 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm

i suspect this is the case - maths fail - but suspect there is a "thing" - matter of some sort with a "size" (in some dimension - might not be in 3 - we are talking about an extreme environment here.

its nature?" no way to know via Maths - nor without going into the event horizon - and when you do so and then "know" you can't get out to tell the rest of us!!!

lol.
WHERE does this BELIEF that "THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW" come from EXACTLY?

Do 'you', adult human beings, REALLY BELIEVE that if 'you' have NOT YET come to KNOWN something, within your own, individual or collective, existence, then "THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW", forever more?

Look, 'to KNOW', can be, and IS DONE, through LOGICAL REASONING.

Also, it was NOT an "extreme environment" AT ALL. All it was was just a 'different environment' from what 'you' are used to.
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm I think we can make a few meager assumptions - very meager ones - but better than nothing
But WHY make ANY 'assumption' AT ALL? Especially considering the FACT that we can just LOOK AT and DISCUSS, only, what thee ACTUAL Truth IS, alone.
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm 1. we know that the weakest force - gravity becomes the stongest with mass accumulation and when there is enough mass collected that weakest force overides all others - incudlign the strong force. Neutron stars overide all forces except the strong force.
2. when the excape velocity exceeeds the speed of light there is no empiriscism by definition to understand the nature of the singularity.
What are you trying to say here in the first nine words? They do not make sense to me.

When 'what' escapes, velocity exceeds the speed of light?

The saying, "there is empiricism, by definition, to understand the nature of the singularity", is also just a CLAIM, which is based on NOTHING but the ASSUMPTION that "there is NO WAY to KNOW", which is CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY Wrong, in and of itself.

The use of the 'the' word here is also Wrong usage.

Now, to UNDERSTAND and KNOW the True nature of singularity, contrary to popular BELIEF, is about one of the most simplest things that can be done.
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm outside of one going into to know - can't come out to tell - so only solution is to either assume man is too dumb to ever kow, or assume man may know in the future - post quantum/rel/newton/etc--- unified theory - and so a new maths and new minds - maybe a new man - to be able to know - oustide of personally traveling inside of singularity.

3. the "matter" (I don't think its just matter at this point - its "somehting" beyond the strong force - so atomic ucleili implode into a form beyond "matter" as we understand it.
If you 'it' is NOT matter, than what else could 'it' possibly be.
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm 4 however that "matter" still retains mass - so the nature of mass is more fundamental than matter. - i.e. so a "thing" that has broken all the forces incluiding the strong force - so atoms are gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - that thing no longer has atom, it still has mass.
What are you basing that CLAIM "atoms are gone" on EXACTLY?
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm 5. we know it retains mass - because it sucks in all tings around it!!!!!!!!!!!! so refer to 4 above.

6. I don' think siz - so and so BH sigularity is a golf ball size/etc.......is relivent. it might, or maybe the nature of reality in that "space" is so alien as to not offer the concept of siz. we cannot know.

7. we do know that somhow gravity can transend space - how einstain? - when space is closed due to gravity - how can a HB cut off by the rest of the universe still have gravitational effect on the the universe outside of it????????

that is the question! somehow the weakest force can travel beyond the light bearer of the bhe Event horizon and still have en effect on the rest of normal matter? yet at the same time cutt off from the universe? odd for sure.
How could ANY thing be "cut off" from thee Universe, Itself?
man is just an animal. its likely he lack the ability to know the natur \e of a siglarity as a cat know the nature of human speach - humility is one of the the virtues - try it sometime.
LOL

Just about absolutely EVERY thing human beings come 'to KNOW' was ONCE considered impossible 'to KNOW'. The nature of; the Universe, Life, Existence, and a singularity included.

Being Truly Honest, backing up and supporting one's CLAIMS, is also a virtue. So, it could also be said, 'try it sometime'.
socrat44
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

Singularity.
Other opinions:
“Singularities also occur in nature as limits when something is based on a mathematical model
that tends to infinity, but in real life it just gets very large, like two point particle planets falling
toward each other that mathematically spiral infinitely fast, but in real life would have finite radii
and their velocity would be a finite large number before they collide.”
/ Jack Stoppenbach /
#
“Mathematically there are lots of singularities like Ring singularity, isolated singularity etc.,.
These are wonderful concepts. The moment a particular border is crossed, it tends to infinity.
1/0 is infinity. It means even if you add infinite amount of space it will not be equal matter.
or even if a matter is divided infinitely, it will not end in zero. The empty space in which
the universal matter exists is a big singularity whose curvature we cannot see.”
/ HARIHARSUDEN V/
#
“Particle physics has something similar to singularities that are dealt with through renormalisation,
so that the bare electron charge may be infinite, but the charge we see is the result of screening
by the quantum vacuum acting as a dielectric.

The singularity in a black hole arises when you make the assumption that matter behaves as a classical
fluid acting under gravity alone. This is as implausible as making the same assumption about the Earth
and concluding it should have collapsed. There are mechanisms that may inhibit the formation of a singularity,
such as the Exclusion Principle. This could lead to a scenario in which the black hole acts as a super-accelerator
that produces a quark-gluon plasma, with a singularity being averted when the Exclusion Principle leads
to a "big bounce", somewhat akin to supernova that leaves behind a quark star instead of a neutron star.
The Uncertainty Principle alone would mean that in order to achieve a singularity, you would need
to allow particles with infinite energy.

What all of this means is that quantum mechanics may prevent the singularity and without
its incorporation into GR we are going to get silly results.”
/ Russell Childs /
#
All known electromagnetic radiation from DC to highest frequencies has its origin on the surface of an object.
So the singularity does not exist in reality, it is a result of idealization (point-like mass with infinitive charge density).
/ Gerd Termathe /
#
"The idea of anything real that's zero dimensional is incoherent, and there's not going to be anything with infinite density, either.
There are a lot of bad ontological claims made by physicists based on reifying mathematics.
Could there be something unusually dense and small, though? Sure."
/ Terrapin Station /
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Impenitent
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

the best singularities are often found in church choirs...

-Imp
RCSaunders
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:22 am If the maths says it exists then it exists. That's the way of the universe.
Math says nothing about existence. First you have existence, then you learn to count and measure it. You may be suffering from the Pythagorean psychosis. When the Pythagoreans, who believed, like you, that everything could be explained by math, discovered incommensurables, they killed themselves. Take care!
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:20 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:22 am If the maths says it exists then it exists. That's the way of the universe.
Math says nothing about existence. First you have existence, then you learn to count and measure it. You may be suffering from the Pythagorean psychosis. When the Pythagoreans, who believed, like you, that everything could be explained by math, discovered incommensurables, they killed themselves. Take care!
The maths doesn't actually say that a black hole singularity exists in reality. The maths breaks down at the quantum level and therein lies the mystery. As far as I can decipher, when they don't have the maths yet to fully explain a theory then infinity pops up. The word is mathS, or do you have a lithp?
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
RCSaunders
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### Re: Does The Singularity Exist?

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:27 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:20 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:22 am If the maths says it exists then it exists. That's the way of the universe.
Math says nothing about existence. First you have existence, then you learn to count and measure it. You may be suffering from the Pythagorean psychosis. When the Pythagoreans, who believed, like you, that everything could be explained by math, discovered incommensurables, they killed themselves. Take care!
The maths doesn't actually say that a black hole singularity exists in reality. The maths breaks down at the quantum level and therein lies the mystery. As far as I can decipher, when they don't have the maths yet to fully explain a theory then infinity pops us. The word is mathS, or do you have a lithp?
Actually I agree with that. A lot of nonsense comes out of quantum speculation, I think.

Yes, I'm familiar with the slang of some cultures, but even there the two most well-known mathematical works (Newton, Russell) were, Principia Mathematica, not principia "maths." In Thailand, Italy, Greece, Cost Rica, or Brazil, and most of the world, people just look at you funny if you say, "maths." It's actually a big, "so what!?" Say it any way you like. There's no law.