Conscious universe?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Age
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

philosopher wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:08 am
Age wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:20 am
philosopher wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:13 pm

Individual separate human bodies with individual thinking, is my definition of persons and people.
Thank you for CLARIFYING. This explains WHY you are MISUNDERSTANDING.

By the way, people are more of, and less of, a person depending on how many limbs of the body are missing, or not, correct?
That's correct. Losing a limb makes you another person, as losing a leg or an arm, will inevitably lead to a change of personality.
You won't be the same person then.
So, you do look at, and see, some people as being less of a 'person' than you are.

But just to CLARIFY, and to make it absolutely CLEAR, some of 'us' do NOT look at, NOR see, 'people' this way.
Age
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm There is change everywhere.
Agreed, except for the FACT that thee Universe, Itself, is a constant.
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm Mind is everywhere since it is needed for any change.
This you have NOT YET PROVEN, outside of YOUR OWN BELIEF that is.
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm The mind is conscious.
The "mind" is, supposedly, conscious of 'what', EXACTLY?
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm Therefore, the universe is conscious.
The universe is conscious of 'what', EXACTLY.

By the way, your "argument" here is NOT sound and valid, AT ALL.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm There is change everywhere.
Agreed, except for the FACT that thee Universe, Itself, is a constant.
What do you mean by constant?
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm Mind is everywhere since it is needed for any change.
This you have NOT YET PROVEN, outside of YOUR OWN BELIEF that is.
I have an argument for that.
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm The mind is conscious.
The "mind" is, supposedly, conscious of 'what', EXACTLY?
Conscious of Qualia.
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm Therefore, the universe is conscious.
The universe is conscious of 'what', EXACTLY.

By the way, your "argument" here is NOT sound and valid, AT ALL.
Qualia.
Age
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:48 pm
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm There is change everywhere.
Agreed, except for the FACT that thee Universe, Itself, is a constant.
What do you mean by constant?
The change, which is everywhere, except that the Universe is 'constantly' changing. So, this means: There is change everywhere except in the FACT that the Universe is 'constantly changing'. This FACT, obviously, can NOT change. So, therefore, there is change 'everywhere', except for 'here'.

Is this CLEAR and UNDERSTOOD now?
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:48 pm
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm Mind is everywhere since it is needed for any change.
This you have NOT YET PROVEN, outside of YOUR OWN BELIEF that is.
I have an argument for that.
Yes I KNOW. But, as I have ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGED and STATED, that, so called, "argument" is NOT a sound and valid argument. Therefore, it is NOT worth repeating.

You obviously have NOT YET provided sufficient definitions for the words that you use, which makes a sound AND valid argument for YOUR CLAIMS here.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:48 pm
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm The mind is conscious.
The "mind" is, supposedly, conscious of 'what', EXACTLY?
Conscious of Qualia.
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm Therefore, the universe is conscious.
The universe is conscious of 'what', EXACTLY.

By the way, your "argument" here is NOT sound and valid, AT ALL.
Qualia.
How, EXACTLY, does the Universe, Itself, perceive or experience things?
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bahman
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:38 am
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:48 pm
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
Agreed, except for the FACT that thee Universe, Itself, is a constant.
What do you mean by constant?
The change, which is everywhere, except that the Universe is 'constantly' changing. So, this means: There is change everywhere except in the FACT that the Universe is 'constantly changing'. This FACT, obviously, can NOT change. So, therefore, there is change 'everywhere', except for 'here'.

Is this CLEAR and UNDERSTOOD now?
Yes.
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:48 pm
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
This you have NOT YET PROVEN, outside of YOUR OWN BELIEF that is.
I have an argument for that.
Yes I KNOW. But, as I have ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGED and STATED, that, so called, "argument" is NOT a sound and valid argument. Therefore, it is NOT worth repeating.

You obviously have NOT YET provided sufficient definitions for the words that you use, which makes a sound AND valid argument for YOUR CLAIMS here.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:48 pm
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
The "mind" is, supposedly, conscious of 'what', EXACTLY?
Conscious of Qualia.
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
The universe is conscious of 'what', EXACTLY.

By the way, your "argument" here is NOT sound and valid, AT ALL.
Qualia.
How, EXACTLY, does the Universe, Itself, perceive or experience things?
That is the ability of the mind. Otherwise, there could not be any coherence in reality.
philosopher
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by philosopher »

Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:14 am
philosopher wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:08 am
Age wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:20 am

Thank you for CLARIFYING. This explains WHY you are MISUNDERSTANDING.

By the way, people are more of, and less of, a person depending on how many limbs of the body are missing, or not, correct?
That's correct. Losing a limb makes you another person, as losing a leg or an arm, will inevitably lead to a change of personality.
You won't be the same person then.
So, you do look at, and see, some people as being less of a 'person' than you are.

But just to CLARIFY, and to make it absolutely CLEAR, some of 'us' do NOT look at, NOR see, 'people' this way.
It's a scientific fact. "You" change all the time. Everytime a cell in your body gets replaced by another cell, "you" change as well.

It has nothing to do with seeing people in a certain way, nor am I implying that disabled people are worth less as than anyone else.

All I'm saying is that people are less themselves than they were before. Right now I am less me than I was a second ago.
Age
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:36 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:38 am
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:48 pm
What do you mean by constant?
The change, which is everywhere, except that the Universe is 'constantly' changing. So, this means: There is change everywhere except in the FACT that the Universe is 'constantly changing'. This FACT, obviously, can NOT change. So, therefore, there is change 'everywhere', except for 'here'.

Is this CLEAR and UNDERSTOOD now?
Yes.
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:48 pm
I have an argument for that.
Yes I KNOW. But, as I have ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGED and STATED, that, so called, "argument" is NOT a sound and valid argument. Therefore, it is NOT worth repeating.

You obviously have NOT YET provided sufficient definitions for the words that you use, which makes a sound AND valid argument for YOUR CLAIMS here.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:48 pm
Conscious of Qualia.


Qualia.
How, EXACTLY, does the Universe, Itself, perceive or experience things?
That is the ability of the mind.
But which "mind"?

You have claimed there are MANY "minds", and well as there being HUMAN "minds", which implies there are other types of "minds".

Now, if there are MANY different types of "minds", which "one" perceives and experiences things PROPERLY and CORRECTLY?

And what else there that could DECIPHER or DISCERN what is going on here, and ALL-OF-THIS?
bahman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:36 pmOtherwise, there could not be any coherence in reality.
Have you NOT YET noticed just how much incoherence there is, in reality?

Or, more correctly, there is, ONLY, in 'you', human beings.

By the way, if you are interested, 'you', "bahman", have a very bad habit of "circular reasoning". Although your conclusions are sometimes ABSOLUTELY True, Right, and Correct, the way you get there is VERY CIRCULAR, and so it is NOT helping your cause.

For example,
There could be no coherence in reality without the mind to perceive and experience things.
There is coherence in reality.
Therefore, the mind has the ability to perceive and experience things.

The Universe, Itself, is a formed unified whole. It did NOT need a species to evolve and come along for 'coherence' to then occur. The Universe exists and IS COHERED on Its OWN.

In 'Reality', Itself, there is ONLY coherence. And, it is only 'you', human being species, which "pulls apart" or "separates" this COHERENCE. This is because of how the human brain works. For the human brain to UNDERSTAND FULLY the 'world'/the Universe/the Reality that it lives in it has to make an APPEARANCE of 'separation', which it can only do this through words and language.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:15 am
bahman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:36 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:38 am

The change, which is everywhere, except that the Universe is 'constantly' changing. So, this means: There is change everywhere except in the FACT that the Universe is 'constantly changing'. This FACT, obviously, can NOT change. So, therefore, there is change 'everywhere', except for 'here'.

Is this CLEAR and UNDERSTOOD now?
Yes.
Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 am

Yes I KNOW. But, as I have ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGED and STATED, that, so called, "argument" is NOT a sound and valid argument. Therefore, it is NOT worth repeating.

You obviously have NOT YET provided sufficient definitions for the words that you use, which makes a sound AND valid argument for YOUR CLAIMS here.

How, EXACTLY, does the Universe, Itself, perceive or experience things?
That is the ability of the mind.
But which "mind"?

You have claimed there are MANY "minds", and well as there being HUMAN "minds", which implies there are other types of "minds".

Now, if there are MANY different types of "minds", which "one" perceives and experiences things PROPERLY and CORRECTLY?

And what else there that could DECIPHER or DISCERN what is going on here, and ALL-OF-THIS?
That is the ability of all minds.
Age wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:38 am
bahman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:36 pmOtherwise, there could not be any coherence in reality.
Have you NOT YET noticed just how much incoherence there is, in reality?

Or, more correctly, there is, ONLY, in 'you', human beings.

By the way, if you are interested, 'you', "bahman", have a very bad habit of "circular reasoning". Although your conclusions are sometimes ABSOLUTELY True, Right, and Correct, the way you get there is VERY CIRCULAR, and so it is NOT helping your cause.

For example,
There could be no coherence in reality without the mind to perceive and experience things.
There is coherence in reality.
Therefore, the mind has the ability to perceive and experience things.

The Universe, Itself, is a formed unified whole. It did NOT need a species to evolve and come along for 'coherence' to then occur. The Universe exists and IS COHERED on Its OWN.

In 'Reality', Itself, there is ONLY coherence. And, it is only 'you', human being species, which "pulls apart" or "separates" this COHERENCE. This is because of how the human brain works. For the human brain to UNDERSTAND FULLY the 'world'/the Universe/the Reality that it lives in it has to make an APPEARANCE of 'separation', which it can only do this through words and language.
That is my argument:
1) The reality is coherent
2) Without experience there could be no coherence
3) Therefore, the reality experiences
Age
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:57 am
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:15 am
bahman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:36 pm
Yes.


That is the ability of the mind.
But which "mind"?

You have claimed there are MANY "minds", and well as there being HUMAN "minds", which implies there are other types of "minds".

Now, if there are MANY different types of "minds", which "one" perceives and experiences things PROPERLY and CORRECTLY?

And what else there that could DECIPHER or DISCERN what is going on here, and ALL-OF-THIS?
That is the ability of all minds.
So, to you, the Universe, Itself, perceives or experiences things through ALL minds.

How MANY minds are there?

Also, you forget, or detracted from, answering my clarifying question posed to you, which was:

What else is there that could decipher, or discern between, what is going on here, and ALL-OF-THIS? In other words, how does the Universe, Itself, KNOW which mind perceives or experiences what is REALLY True, Right, and Correct?
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:57 am
Age wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:38 am
bahman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:36 pmOtherwise, there could not be any coherence in reality.
Have you NOT YET noticed just how much incoherence there is, in reality?

Or, more correctly, there is, ONLY, in 'you', human beings.

By the way, if you are interested, 'you', "bahman", have a very bad habit of "circular reasoning". Although your conclusions are sometimes ABSOLUTELY True, Right, and Correct, the way you get there is VERY CIRCULAR, and so it is NOT helping your cause.

For example,
There could be no coherence in reality without the mind to perceive and experience things.
There is coherence in reality.
Therefore, the mind has the ability to perceive and experience things.

The Universe, Itself, is a formed unified whole. It did NOT need a species to evolve and come along for 'coherence' to then occur. The Universe exists and IS COHERED on Its OWN.

In 'Reality', Itself, there is ONLY coherence. And, it is only 'you', human being species, which "pulls apart" or "separates" this COHERENCE. This is because of how the human brain works. For the human brain to UNDERSTAND FULLY the 'world'/the Universe/the Reality that it lives in it has to make an APPEARANCE of 'separation', which it can only do this through words and language.
That is my argument:
1) The reality is coherent
2) Without experience there could be no coherence
3) Therefore, the reality experiences
What do you mean: "That is my argument"?

Also, what you wrote here is NOTHING like what I ACTUALLY WROTE, NOR MEANT.
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:57 am
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:15 am

But which "mind"?

You have claimed there are MANY "minds", and well as there being HUMAN "minds", which implies there are other types of "minds".

Now, if there are MANY different types of "minds", which "one" perceives and experiences things PROPERLY and CORRECTLY?

And what else there that could DECIPHER or DISCERN what is going on here, and ALL-OF-THIS?
That is the ability of all minds.
So, to you, the Universe, Itself, perceives or experiences things through ALL minds.
No. The universe is made of minds and Qualia. These are minds who experience not the universe.
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm How MANY minds are there?
I have an argument that there are at least two minds.
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm Also, you forget, or detracted from, answering my clarifying question posed to you, which was:

What else is there that could decipher, or discern between, what is going on here, and ALL-OF-THIS? In other words, how does the Universe, Itself, KNOW which mind perceives or experiences what is REALLY True, Right, and Correct?
The universe is just a collection of minds and Qualia. The universe does not exist as an entity therefore it does not experience anything.
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:57 am
Age wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:38 am Have you NOT YET noticed just how much incoherence there is, in reality?

Or, more correctly, there is, ONLY, in 'you', human beings.

By the way, if you are interested, 'you', "bahman", have a very bad habit of "circular reasoning". Although your conclusions are sometimes ABSOLUTELY True, Right, and Correct, the way you get there is VERY CIRCULAR, and so it is NOT helping your cause.

For example,
There could be no coherence in reality without the mind to perceive and experience things.
There is coherence in reality.
Therefore, the mind has the ability to perceive and experience things.

The Universe, Itself, is a formed unified whole. It did NOT need a species to evolve and come along for 'coherence' to then occur. The Universe exists and IS COHERED on Its OWN.

In 'Reality', Itself, there is ONLY coherence. And, it is only 'you', human being species, which "pulls apart" or "separates" this COHERENCE. This is because of how the human brain works. For the human brain to UNDERSTAND FULLY the 'world'/the Universe/the Reality that it lives in it has to make an APPEARANCE of 'separation', which it can only do this through words and language.
That is my argument:
1) The reality is coherent
2) Without experience there could be no coherence
3) Therefore, the reality experiences
What do you mean: "That is my argument"?
I should have said that this is my argument.
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm Also, what you wrote here is NOTHING like what I ACTUALLY WROTE, NOR MEANT.
So what? What you said that it is my argument is not my argument.
Age
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:55 pm
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:57 am
That is the ability of all minds.
So, to you, the Universe, Itself, perceives or experiences things through ALL minds.
No. The universe is made of minds and Qualia. These are minds who experience not the universe.
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm How MANY minds are there?
I have an argument that there are at least two minds.
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm Also, you forget, or detracted from, answering my clarifying question posed to you, which was:

What else is there that could decipher, or discern between, what is going on here, and ALL-OF-THIS? In other words, how does the Universe, Itself, KNOW which mind perceives or experiences what is REALLY True, Right, and Correct?
The universe is just a collection of minds and Qualia. The universe does not exist as an entity therefore it does not experience anything.
Previously, in this thread, you had concluded: The Universe is conscious.

I then asked you: The universe is conscious of 'what', EXACTLY.

You replied: Qualia.

I then asked: How, EXACTLY, does the Universe, Itself, perceive or experience things?

You then said: That is the ability of the mind.

I asked: Which mind?

You said: All minds.

I then stated: So, to you, the Universe, Itself, perceives or experiences things through ALL minds.

You then said: No. The universe is made of minds and Qualia. These are minds who experience not the universe.

So, to you, the Universe is conscious of: Qualia, which the Universe is made of, and the Universe is made of more than one mind, and these minds are a 'who', or an entity, which experiences, but the Universe does not experience. Is this now correct?

You then go on to say that you have an argument that there are at least two minds, but how many minds there are EXACTLY you do not know AT ALL, correct?

You also state that the Universe is JUST a collection of minds and qualia, is the 'just' word here meant to infer that the Universe is a collection of minds and qualia, ONLY?

You also state that the Universe is NOT an entity, and because It is NOT an entity then that means that the Universe can NOT experience ANY thing. But you also state that the Universe is conscious of qualia. So, I am just wondering now, how a non entity, which can NOT experience ANY thing, also be conscious of SOME things like qualia?
Age
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm Have you NOT YET noticed just how much incoherence there is, in reality?

Or, more correctly, there is, ONLY, in 'you', human beings.

By the way, if you are interested, 'you', "bahman", have a very bad habit of "circular reasoning". Although your conclusions are sometimes ABSOLUTELY True, Right, and Correct, the way you get there is VERY CIRCULAR, and so it is NOT helping your cause.

For example,
There could be no coherence in reality without the mind to perceive and experience things.
There is coherence in reality.
Therefore, the mind has the ability to perceive and experience things.

The Universe, Itself, is a formed unified whole. It did NOT need a species to evolve and come along for 'coherence' to then occur. The Universe exists and IS COHERED on Its OWN.

In 'Reality', Itself, there is ONLY coherence. And, it is only 'you', human being species, which "pulls apart" or "separates" this COHERENCE. This is because of how the human brain works. For the human brain to UNDERSTAND FULLY the 'world'/the Universe/the Reality that it lives in it has to make an APPEARANCE of 'separation', which it can only do this through words and language.
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:55 pm
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:57 am
That is my argument:
1) The reality is coherent
2) Without experience there could be no coherence
3) Therefore, the reality experiences
What do you mean: "That is my argument"?
I should have said that this is my argument.
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm Also, what you wrote here is NOTHING like what I ACTUALLY WROTE, NOR MEANT.
So what?
Well now that you have CLEARED this up by stating that you should have said, "THIS is my argument", instead of, "THAT is my argument", what I wrote does NOT matter ANYMORE.

So, "So what?" is now moot.
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:55 pm What you said that it is my argument is not my argument.
But I did NOT write, "That is my argument:"

It was 'you', "bahman", who wrote, "That is my argument;".
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:42 am
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:55 pm
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm
So, to you, the Universe, Itself, perceives or experiences things through ALL minds.
No. The universe is made of minds and Qualia. These are minds who experience not the universe.
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm How MANY minds are there?
I have an argument that there are at least two minds.
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm Also, you forget, or detracted from, answering my clarifying question posed to you, which was:

What else is there that could decipher, or discern between, what is going on here, and ALL-OF-THIS? In other words, how does the Universe, Itself, KNOW which mind perceives or experiences what is REALLY True, Right, and Correct?
The universe is just a collection of minds and Qualia. The universe does not exist as an entity therefore it does not experience anything.
Previously, in this thread, you had concluded: The Universe is conscious.

I then asked you: The universe is conscious of 'what', EXACTLY.

You replied: Qualia.

I then asked: How, EXACTLY, does the Universe, Itself, perceive or experience things?

You then said: That is the ability of the mind.

I asked: Which mind?

You said: All minds.

I then stated: So, to you, the Universe, Itself, perceives or experiences things through ALL minds.

You then said: No. The universe is made of minds and Qualia. These are minds who experience not the universe.

So, to you, the Universe is conscious of: Qualia, which the Universe is made of, and the Universe is made of more than one mind, and these minds are a 'who', or an entity, which experiences, but the Universe does not experience. Is this now correct?

You then go on to say that you have an argument that there are at least two minds, but how many minds there are EXACTLY you do not know AT ALL, correct?

You also state that the Universe is JUST a collection of minds and qualia, is the 'just' word here meant to infer that the Universe is a collection of minds and qualia, ONLY?

You also state that the Universe is NOT an entity, and because It is NOT an entity then that means that the Universe can NOT experience ANY thing. But you also state that the Universe is conscious of qualia. So, I am just wondering now, how a non entity, which can NOT experience ANY thing, also be conscious of SOME things like qualia?
This is my last thought. The universe is not an entity. Therefore it is not conscious. Things within however are conscious.
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:30 am
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm Have you NOT YET noticed just how much incoherence there is, in reality?

Or, more correctly, there is, ONLY, in 'you', human beings.

By the way, if you are interested, 'you', "bahman", have a very bad habit of "circular reasoning". Although your conclusions are sometimes ABSOLUTELY True, Right, and Correct, the way you get there is VERY CIRCULAR, and so it is NOT helping your cause.

For example,
There could be no coherence in reality without the mind to perceive and experience things.
There is coherence in reality.
Therefore, the mind has the ability to perceive and experience things.

The Universe, Itself, is a formed unified whole. It did NOT need a species to evolve and come along for 'coherence' to then occur. The Universe exists and IS COHERED on Its OWN.

In 'Reality', Itself, there is ONLY coherence. And, it is only 'you', human being species, which "pulls apart" or "separates" this COHERENCE. This is because of how the human brain works. For the human brain to UNDERSTAND FULLY the 'world'/the Universe/the Reality that it lives in it has to make an APPEARANCE of 'separation', which it can only do this through words and language.
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:55 pm
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm
What do you mean: "That is my argument"?
I should have said that this is my argument.
Age wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:22 pm Also, what you wrote here is NOTHING like what I ACTUALLY WROTE, NOR MEANT.
So what?
Well now that you have CLEARED this up by stating that you should have said, "THIS is my argument", instead of, "THAT is my argument", what I wrote does NOT matter ANYMORE.

So, "So what?" is now moot.
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:55 pm What you said that it is my argument is not my argument.
But I did NOT write, "That is my argument:"

It was 'you', "bahman", who wrote, "That is my argument;".
Again, this is my argument:
1) The reality is coherent
2) Without experience there could be no coherence
3) Therefore, the reality experiences
What you said that was circular is not mine.
Age
Posts: 7753
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Re: Conscious universe?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:06 pm
Age wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:42 am
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:55 pm
No. The universe is made of minds and Qualia. These are minds who experience not the universe.


I have an argument that there are at least two minds.


The universe is just a collection of minds and Qualia. The universe does not exist as an entity therefore it does not experience anything.
Previously, in this thread, you had concluded: The Universe is conscious.

I then asked you: The universe is conscious of 'what', EXACTLY.

You replied: Qualia.

I then asked: How, EXACTLY, does the Universe, Itself, perceive or experience things?

You then said: That is the ability of the mind.

I asked: Which mind?

You said: All minds.

I then stated: So, to you, the Universe, Itself, perceives or experiences things through ALL minds.

You then said: No. The universe is made of minds and Qualia. These are minds who experience not the universe.

So, to you, the Universe is conscious of: Qualia, which the Universe is made of, and the Universe is made of more than one mind, and these minds are a 'who', or an entity, which experiences, but the Universe does not experience. Is this now correct?

You then go on to say that you have an argument that there are at least two minds, but how many minds there are EXACTLY you do not know AT ALL, correct?

You also state that the Universe is JUST a collection of minds and qualia, is the 'just' word here meant to infer that the Universe is a collection of minds and qualia, ONLY?

You also state that the Universe is NOT an entity, and because It is NOT an entity then that means that the Universe can NOT experience ANY thing. But you also state that the Universe is conscious of qualia. So, I am just wondering now, how a non entity, which can NOT experience ANY thing, also be conscious of SOME things like qualia?
This is my last thought. The universe is not an entity. Therefore it is not conscious. Things within however are conscious.
WHY WAS this your "last thought"?

Did 'you' just STOP thinking and are NEVER going to think EVER AGAIN?

If yes, then I will NOT ask you ANYMORE clarifying questions.

But if no, then what are these 'things', EXACTLY, within the Universe, which are conscious?
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