There is no emergence

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman » Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:59 pm

Walker wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:48 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:36 pm
Walker wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:18 pm
Movement can be experienced by mind, through the senses. Movement, which is also change, can only be detected in relationship of two or more things (matter), thus motion (change towards homeostasis) is the emergence, and relationship is a necessary condition for the emergence, along with energy and life and probably some other things, the composition of the element of life being in question.
The motion also is a property of the matter. It cannot be experienced unless the matter has a specific condition.
Matter itself as identified by a separate form is actually a combination of relationships made possible by motion, which makes motion an integral element comprising the existence of form and not merely an observable property.
Yes.
Walker wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:18 pm
To put it in perspective, the next Buddha may not be limited to a single form, a single observable-by-mind and separate matter/form complex arrangement of molecules. The next Buddha may be the inevitable emergent property of a unique combination of elements distinguishable from a rock, by energy frequencies emanating from both carbon and silicon configurations, in relationship.
Experience, for example, is an ability of mind rather than an emergent property of matter.

Spyrith
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Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:22 am

Re: There is no emergence

Post by Spyrith » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:04 am

bahman wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:06 pm
To show this consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in terms of properties of parts if it is an emergent property. There must however be a reason that the system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function that describes the property of the system. The only available variables are however the properties of parts. Therefore the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence since the existence of the function implements that the property of the system is reducible to properties of parts.
While this point of view is solid, I suggest you read a book called "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas Hofstader.

Basically, the book is written from the point of view of mathematician and materialist who demonstrates how something can emerge from a simple set of parts using a process called self-reference.

The best example he gives in the book is comparing a water puddle with a brain, and pointing out how the two have an identical molecular composition, but yet they are extremely different from a qualitative point of view.

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bahman
Posts: 2860
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:03 pm

Spyrith wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:04 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:06 pm
To show this consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in terms of properties of parts if it is an emergent property. There must however be a reason that the system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function that describes the property of the system. The only available variables are however the properties of parts. Therefore the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence since the existence of the function implements that the property of the system is reducible to properties of parts.
While this point of view is solid, I suggest you read a book called "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas Hofstader.

Basically, the book is written from the point of view of mathematician and materialist who demonstrates how something can emerge from a simple set of parts using a process called self-reference.

The best example he gives in the book is comparing a water puddle with a brain, and pointing out how the two have an identical molecular composition, but yet they are extremely different from a qualitative point of view.
What can I say is the taste of salt is a hidden property in matter. It enhances because of the formation of matter. There is however mind that experiences, decides and causes. This is how reality is for me. We are interacting minds. Mind, however, cannot be emergent.

Thanks for the book too. I will try to read it.

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