Is becoming like God good or evil?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Resha Caner
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

Post by Resha Caner »

Sorry. Double post.
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Greatest I am
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

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Resha Caner wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:I saw denial without correction so spoke to dogma instead.
What did I deny? What did I fail to correct?
Let's restart.

Is becoming like God, in a moral sense way, good or evil?

Regards
DL
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Greatest I am wrote:
Resha Caner wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:I saw denial without correction so spoke to dogma instead.
What did I deny? What did I fail to correct?
Let's restart.

Is becoming like God, in a moral sense way, good or evil?

Regards
DL
So you're asking if becoming godlike, as to his morals, is moral or immoral?
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

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SpheresOfBalance wrote:[
So you're asking if becoming godlike, as to his morals, is moral or immoral?
Yes.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

Post by attofishpi »

Greatest I am wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:[
So you're asking if becoming godlike, as to his morals, is moral or immoral?
Yes.

Regards
DL
Who here knows God enough to answer that question...? Not me. The minute before my death, perhaps i would bother to try...
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

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attofishpi wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:[
So you're asking if becoming godlike, as to his morals, is moral or immoral?
Yes.

Regards
DL
Who here knows God enough to answer that question...? Not me. The minute before my death, perhaps i would bother to try...
You mean the moment after your death.

Yes. Nothing has been said of God or about him that has not come from a man.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Greatest I am wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:[
So you're asking if becoming godlike, as to his morals, is moral or immoral?
Yes.

Regards
DL
Yes that's exactly what I was going to address, i.e., How could one 'know' a gods morals, unless they were told by the god. And there is no definitive proof that anyone has ever spoken to a god, as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

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All that is said of God is speculation. Some say speculative nonsense.

We are talking of bible God, who likely never existed, and the morals that are given him by those who wrote the myth.

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DL
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

Post by mtmynd1 »

Greatest I am wrote:All that is said of God is speculation. Some say speculative nonsense.

We are talking of bible God, who likely never existed, and the morals that are given him by those who wrote the myth.

Regards
DL
You obviously are clueless in comprehending the age-old concept of "god" (which is very common), using the word 'speculation.' However you capitalize the "G" with a inbred respect for what any "god" implies. Therein is a direct correlation - an implication of 'god' is as close as hu'manity can arrive at understanding what 'it' is. Every culture, many of the world's religions and even many philosophers use different words to 'imply' the existence of an 'absolute' (another implication). No matter what word we use, in our language (English) "god" is the generally accepted word/sound we use to convey this "Great Spirit" (Native American term). "Nirvana" is also implying not so much an object of veneration but an experience within. But as it has been 'implied' in Zen, all these words are are 'the finger pointing to the godly experience', not the experience itself. "Don't look at the finger but rather what the finger is pointing to..." Getting strung out on these words, such as "god", is diverting one's attention away from what the word is 'pointing to"... a fatal mistake so many so-called interpreters (preachers, priests, pastors, etc.) of the Bible have totally mis-characterized to the detriment of understanding a very valid experience.

A man of great wisdom said: "I don't know if there is a God or not but I do know there is a godliness within us because I have witnessed it many times."
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

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mtmynd1 wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:All that is said of God is speculation. Some say speculative nonsense.

We are talking of bible God, who likely never existed, and the morals that are given him by those who wrote the myth.

Regards
DL
You obviously are clueless in comprehending the age-old concept of "god" (which is very common), using the word 'speculation.' However you capitalize the "G" with a inbred respect for what any "god" implies. Therein is a direct correlation - an implication of 'god' is as close as hu'manity can arrive at understanding what 'it' is. Every culture, many of the world's religions and even many philosophers use different words to 'imply' the existence of an 'absolute' (another implication). No matter what word we use, in our language (English) "god" is the generally accepted word/sound we use to convey this "Great Spirit" (Native American term). "Nirvana" is also implying not so much an object of veneration but an experience within. But as it has been 'implied' in Zen, all these words are are 'the finger pointing to the godly experience', not the experience itself. "Don't look at the finger but rather what the finger is pointing to..." Getting strung out on these words, such as "god", is diverting one's attention away from what the word is 'pointing to"... a fatal mistake so many so-called interpreters (preachers, priests, pastors, etc.) of the Bible have totally mis-characterized to the detriment of understanding a very valid experience.

A man of great wisdom said: "I don't know if there is a God or not but I do know there is a godliness within us because I have witnessed it many times."
As a Gnostic Christian, I can appreciate that quote as it points to the God within all of us.

I have no argument with what you wrote and basically agree.

The issue is the morality or desirability of becoming as God.

Care to opine?

Regards
DL
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mtmynd1
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

Post by mtmynd1 »

Greatest I am wrote:As a Gnostic Christian, I can appreciate that quote as it points to the God within all of us.

I have no argument with what you wrote and basically agree.

The issue is the morality or desirability of becoming as God.

Care to opine?
DL... to begin with, "becoming as God" is not possible. However to become 'godly' is attainable as godliness is a hu'man trait based upon our understanding of 'god(s)'. We have discovered that godliness is possible using in part, our morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior"... which parallels the Buddhist Eightfold Path). Although following the moral does not guarantee our godliness but does promise a reduction of our ego life in favor of a greater life within.

As you are aware the vast majority of our hu'manity has far too many duties in the everyday life of survival thru solving our hunger problems, our shelter concerns and those of our families. We have put a large load on ourselves that often, if not always, leaves little room for the timelessness of Ethics. That is normally reserved for our teachers or religious figures who we trust to lead us upon the "Golden Path" on our day of salvation. ;)

Having said that, it is written in the Bible (Exodus) - "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain..." (repeated in Deuteronomy) oddly is one of the Commandments that evidently is the most misunderstood. Bringing up the word or intent of "God" for one's own purposes is 'vanity' which is not favorable in that god's eyes (metaphorically speaking). However in all cultures and religions there are always those who use the word NOT to further the understanding of that state of mind, but to favor their own positions amongst their followers. Therein lies the deceptions that "God(s)" find despicable... even those same "god(s)" are said to have created mankind.

That is where I find the Buddhist Eightfold Path a more favorable effort that removes that word "God" from the dialogue and reinforces the ability of each and everyone of us mortal beings an opportunity to further understand our own godliness and therefore accept the idea of an Absolute. It is incumbent upon hu'manity to know ourselves and aid the lesser able amongst us during our stay on this lonely planet... whether there is a God or not. The Truth is we, hu'manity, has defined a state of godliness because there are people who have had that experience.
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

mtmynd1 wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:As a Gnostic Christian, I can appreciate that quote as it points to the God within all of us.

I have no argument with what you wrote and basically agree.

The issue is the morality or desirability of becoming as God.

Care to opine?
DL... to begin with, "becoming as God" is not possible. However to become 'godly' is attainable as godliness is a hu'man trait based upon our understanding of 'god(s)'. We have discovered that godliness is possible using in part, our morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior"... which parallels the Buddhist Eightfold Path). Although following the moral does not guarantee our godliness but does promise a reduction of our ego life in favor of a greater life within.

As you are aware the vast majority of our hu'manity has far too many duties in the everyday life of survival thru solving our hunger problems, our shelter concerns and those of our families. We have put a large load on ourselves that often, if not always, leaves little room for the timelessness of Ethics. That is normally reserved for our teachers or religious figures who we trust to lead us upon the "Golden Path" on our day of salvation. ;)

Having said that, it is written in the Bible (Exodus) - "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain..." (repeated in Deuteronomy) oddly is one of the Commandments that evidently is the most misunderstood. Bringing up the word or intent of "God" for one's own purposes is 'vanity' which is not favorable in that god's eyes (metaphorically speaking). However in all cultures and religions there are always those who use the word NOT to further the understanding of that state of mind, but to favor their own positions amongst their followers. Therein lies the deceptions that "God(s)" find despicable... even those same "god(s)" are said to have created mankind.

That is where I find the Buddhist Eightfold Path a more favorable effort that removes that word "God" from the dialogue and reinforces the ability of each and everyone of us mortal beings an opportunity to further understand our own godliness and therefore accept the idea of an Absolute. It is incumbent upon hu'manity to know ourselves and aid the lesser able amongst us during our stay on this lonely planet... whether there is a God or not. The Truth is we, hu'manity, has defined a state of godliness because there are people who have had that experience.
No argument but I do have a comment or two.

Mankind was not created by some God. Nature is our mother, so to speak, along with evolution.
Nature also created, inadvertently of course, what most would call God and I call the Godhead, just to differentiate.

The accepting of our godliness as some kind of absolute will not happen to any that have suffered an apotheosis. Those will know that God, like man, evolves and is not an absolute of anything.

Seek God but know that if you find him, you are to raise the bar for that work and seek further.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

Post by mtmynd1 »

Greatest I am wrote:
Mankind was not created by some God. Nature is our mother, so to speak, along with evolution.
Nature also created, inadvertently of course, what most would call God and I call the Godhead, just to differentiate.
It is a fact that man created God and therefore it could be argued that man could not have been created by the very word that we, ourselves, have created. But hu'manity is as limited by our ability as the very Nature that was been provided to us. We cannot smell as good a a canine, we are unable to see as well as a hawk, we are unable to hold our breath longer than 3 minutes without gasping for more, etc, etc.. We are also limited to our ability to think or understand as do the "gods" we have imagined there to be. If we could fully comprehend what we want our gods to be, why would we have a need to worship them?

Nature, I've come to understand, (and that includes all off Nature both Earthly and Celestial), is the physical manifestation of an Absolute that encompasses ALL. "God" is Pure Consciousness... no gender, therefore no "He"... no eyes, no ears, no mouth... all attempts to convey that "god" made us in "His Image"... when the fact is more likely we were created with the "God Within" or Pure Consciousness, a purely spiritual essence not unlike the fragrance of your favorite flower.

More to the point - Nature is the physicality of all matter, including our very own physical body, which is the container of that Pure Consciousness, the All Knowing, of which we, every life form, is but a singular 'drop' from the oceanic of that consciousness.
Greatest I am wrote:The accepting of our godliness as some kind of absolute will not happen to any that have suffered an apotheosis. Those will know that God, like man, evolves and is not an absolute of anything.
DL, I must take issue with this word you choose to use, i.e. "apotheosis" which is simply defined as "Exaltation to divine rank or stature; deification." I'm very familiar with "Cosmic Consciousness" as written by Richard Maurice Bucke. I may be wrong but I certainly don't recall any of his examples referring to this experience as giving any of them a divinity or exaltation, unless you are referring to how those 4-5 seconds made you feel at the moment it ceased. Cosmic Consciousness is parallel to 'Enlightenment" or an awakening as if you've been living your life in a dream-like state and you awaken with new eyes, new mind and see all is it truly is - One. All is one and we are but a part and that part is like that drop of the ocean, that is the ocean. When Siddhartha or Jesus had their enlightenment neither of them attached themselves to a religion or philosophical path that was instituted before their experience. They became, thru that unique experience, i.e. enlightenment, themselves. Know thyself as the proclamation goes... and your uniqueness, your individuality unlike any others is you and no other. It is a liberation from doctrinal beliefs, from barriers, from restrictions imposed upon you or those you once imposed upon yourself... FREE! Free to be which is a tremendous feeling that also encompasses a responsibility upon you... to keep that light on within.

Greatest I am wrote:I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.
I don't see a purpose in thrashing out moral issues but to ensure myself and those that know me that I live my life honestly, without lies and deceit.

But I do find your comment, "I am to discard whatever God I found." This is akin to the Zen saying : "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."
Greatest I am wrote:My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.
A wee bit over the edge, mate... "...man... is the supreme being" ".? More like the supreme ego, just ask. ;)

[enough... for now]
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

mtmynd1 wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Mankind was not created by some God. Nature is our mother, so to speak, along with evolution.
Nature also created, inadvertently of course, what most would call God and I call the Godhead, just to differentiate.
It is a fact that man created God and therefore it could be argued that man could not have been created by the very word that we, ourselves, have created. But hu'manity is as limited by our ability as the very Nature that was been provided to us. We cannot smell as good a a canine, we are unable to see as well as a hawk, we are unable to hold our breath longer than 3 minutes without gasping for more, etc, etc.. We are also limited to our ability to think or understand as do the "gods" we have imagined there to be. If we could fully comprehend what we want our gods to be, why would we have a need to worship them?

Nature, I've come to understand, (and that includes all off Nature both Earthly and Celestial), is the physical manifestation of an Absolute that encompasses ALL. "God" is Pure Consciousness... no gender, therefore no "He"... no eyes, no ears, no mouth... all attempts to convey that "god" made us in "His Image"... when the fact is more likely we were created with the "God Within" or Pure Consciousness, a purely spiritual essence not unlike the fragrance of your favorite flower.

More to the point - Nature is the physicality of all matter, including our very own physical body, which is the container of that Pure Consciousness, the All Knowing, of which we, every life form, is but a singular 'drop' from the oceanic of that consciousness.
Greatest I am wrote:The accepting of our godliness as some kind of absolute will not happen to any that have suffered an apotheosis. Those will know that God, like man, evolves and is not an absolute of anything.
DL, I must take issue with this word you choose to use, i.e. "apotheosis" which is simply defined as "Exaltation to divine rank or stature; deification." I'm very familiar with "Cosmic Consciousness" as written by Richard Maurice Bucke. I may be wrong but I certainly don't recall any of his examples referring to this experience as giving any of them a divinity or exaltation, unless you are referring to how those 4-5 seconds made you feel at the moment it ceased. Cosmic Consciousness is parallel to 'Enlightenment" or an awakening as if you've been living your life in a dream-like state and you awaken with new eyes, new mind and see all is it truly is - One. All is one and we are but a part and that part is like that drop of the ocean, that is the ocean. When Siddhartha or Jesus had their enlightenment neither of them attached themselves to a religion or philosophical path that was instituted before their experience. They became, thru that unique experience, i.e. enlightenment, themselves. Know thyself as the proclamation goes... and your uniqueness, your individuality unlike any others is you and no other. It is a liberation from doctrinal beliefs, from barriers, from restrictions imposed upon you or those you once imposed upon yourself... FREE! Free to be which is a tremendous feeling that also encompasses a responsibility upon you... to keep that light on within.

Greatest I am wrote:I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.
I don't see a purpose in thrashing out moral issues but to ensure myself and those that know me that I live my life honestly, without lies and deceit.

But I do find your comment, "I am to discard whatever God I found." This is akin to the Zen saying : "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."
Greatest I am wrote:My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.
A wee bit over the edge, mate... "...man... is the supreme being" ".? More like the supreme ego, just ask. ;)

[enough... for now]
You still sound like Gnostic.

On apotheosis.
I am aware of the definition you use but do not quite agree with it, except perhaps historically.
What they call deification, I call just reaching or finding Jacob's ladder, and starting to climb.
My only enlightenment from apotheosis was a confirming of my paradigm and the clear knowledge that there is an unseen entity. A cosmic consciousness. Think demographically was the advice given.
It has helped expand my thinking.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is becoming like God good or evil?

Post by mtmynd1 »

Greatest I am wrote: You still sound like Gnostic.
I believe Gnostic sounds like me... ;)

Good talking with you, DL.
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