Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Mike Strand
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Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by Mike Strand »

I'm watching a Public Broadcasting System (PBS) special on Martin Luther.

I have what might be a rather naive question or observation: If I'm a Catholic and I buy an indulgence (not even sure they're sold anymore) to be absolved of a sin (e.g.,shoplifting or extramarital sex), am I not, by paying the money, repenting of the sin and expressing faith that God will forgive me?

Leave aside the morality of the Church accepting money from me in this situation -- have I not demonstrated my faith in a fundamental Christian principle -- repentance and forgiveness of sin?

What is the difference between this and confessing my faith in Jesus as a Lutheran or Baptist and paying tithes and offerings to my local church? Again, focus on me and my faith, not the morality of my local Protestant church willing to accept money from me as a demonstration of my faith.
chaz wyman
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by chaz wyman »

Mike Strand wrote:I'm watching a Public Broadcasting System (PBS) special on Martin Luther.

I have what might be a rather naive question or observation: If I'm a Catholic and I buy an indulgence (not even sure they're sold anymore) to be absolved of a sin (e.g.,shoplifting or extramarital sex), am I not, by paying the money, repenting of the sin and expressing faith that God will forgive me?

Leave aside the morality of the Church accepting money from me in this situation -- have I not demonstrated my faith in a fundamental Christian principle -- repentance and forgiveness of sin?

What is the difference between this and confessing my faith in Jesus as a Lutheran or Baptist and paying tithes and offerings to my local church? Again, focus on me and my faith, not the morality of my local Protestant church willing to accept money from me as a demonstration of my faith.
Scholars of ancient law often quote the Gortyn law code scribed on a wall in Crete. It is massive and lists many penalties for civil infractions against your neighbour and his property; bringing suit, marriage, divorce, but also rape and adultery.
Rape against a citizen,rape against a virgin, rape against a foreigner and rape against a slave are all separately given a fine.
When you read it you get the indelible impression that what you are actually reading is a SHOPPING LIST. The Pope had a new shopping list in the 15thC.

In Luther's time, you could have a bloody good weekend, whoring and raping, overindulging in drink and feasting and then on your next visit to the priest you could hand him a few coins and Hey Presto you were saved.
Priests went around collecting cash for the church in markets with a box full of indulgences (scrolls of paper signed by the Pope (or more likely a proxy)), and that cash would go straight to the Vatican where the Pope was building his massive pleasure dome and whorehouse where he would pleasure visiting dignitaries from all over Europe,
I'll say that again. The Pope sold indulgences to build a whore house.
Maybe from an American perspective this seems like an all round good deal, given your ecomonic sensibilities. Maybe you think God can be bought? To me that is fine - I never thought Xianity was logical.

Q: Is the programme a BBC production made by Tristan Hunt, btw?
If it is, it is well researched.
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Kayla
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by Kayla »

this weekend me and some friends were playing call of Cthulhu rpg, set in the dark ages

my character is a somewhat ethically challenged knight

we met an indulgence seller

my character bought an indulgence for murder and robbery

and then killed the indulgence seller and took his money

presumably God is OK with that
chaz wyman
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by chaz wyman »

Kayla wrote:this weekend me and some friends were playing call of Cthulhu rpg, set in the dark ages

my character is a somewhat ethically challenged knight

we met an indulgence seller

my character bought an indulgence for murder and robbery

and then killed the indulgence seller and took his money

presumably God is OK with that
NO, a sin can be committed in thought as well as deed. This indicates that you are emulating the character of a sinner.
You having thinkingly committed the sin of buying an indulgence and of murder.
You will need to go and see your priest who will sell you an indulgence to absolve you of your sins. As long as you don't kill him - you will be okay. ~Don't even think about it.
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Kayla
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by Kayla »

well our party's priest thought i was clear, sin-wise as long as i gave half of my profits to him

then we went and killed a bunch of cthulhu worshippers
chaz wyman
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by chaz wyman »

Kayla wrote:well our party's priest thought i was clear, sin-wise as long as i gave half of my profits to him

then we went and killed a bunch of cthulhu worshippers
You are all doooomed!!!

I thought Role=play was dead.

I spent much of my early 20s doing the D&D. I thought MORPG on the Internet had killed it all off.
Roll a D20 for me.
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John
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by John »

chaz wyman wrote:I spent much of my early 20s doing the D&D.
As did I, plus a lot of my teen years as well.
chaz wyman wrote:I thought MORPG on the Internet had killed it all off.
Nah, it's still alive from what I've seen although it's maybe not quite as popular as before.

Every so often my eight year old son keeps asking to play the "spaceship game" (original Traveller) because despite the magnificence of today's computer games (I play them myself) he seems to get that special connection with sharing your imagination in real time with other people.
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Kayla
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by Kayla »

chaz wyman wrote:You are all doooomed!!!
I thought Role=play was dead.

I spent much of my early 20s doing the D&D. I thought MORPG on the Internet had killed it all off.
Roll a D20 for me.[/quote]

its still alive and well although with a distinct trend to rather grimdark and morally ambiguous settings from what i am told

my father looked my my warhammer 40k stuff and said that in his day it was much easier to tell the good guys from the bad guys
chaz wyman
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by chaz wyman »

Kayla wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:You are all doooomed!!!
I thought Role=play was dead.

I spent much of my early 20s doing the D&D. I thought MORPG on the Internet had killed it all off.
Roll a D20 for me.
its still alive and well although with a distinct trend to rather grimdark and morally ambiguous settings from what i am told

my father looked my my warhammer 40k stuff and said that in his day it was much easier to tell the good guys from the bad guys[/quote]

D&D had a system of good- neutral- evil, but also lawful -neutral - chaos.

Thus there were 9 combinations. LE, LG, LN, NN, NG, NE, CE,CG,CN

Hitler would be Lawful Evil. His evil was organised and moral, being legal and bureaucratic.
Whereas zombies would be Chaotic Evil - completely indiscriminate killers.
On the other side you might have Lawful Good - something like a Paladin or Cleric attached to a religion.
Chaotic Good would be someone like a Rebel fighting for a good cause, helping those along the way without regard for the law.
There was also the combinations with Neutral. Which meant you could be just plain old evil, good, or in the middle.
chaz wyman
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by chaz wyman »

John wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:I spent much of my early 20s doing the D&D.
As did I, plus a lot of my teen years as well.
chaz wyman wrote:I thought MORPG on the Internet had killed it all off.
Nah, it's still alive from what I've seen although it's maybe not quite as popular as before.

Every so often my eight year old son keeps asking to play the "spaceship game" (original Traveller) because despite the magnificence of today's computer games (I play them myself) he seems to get that special connection with sharing your imagination in real time with other people.
Around 1980-1 I lived in Hollywood, and we had a large group of friends most of whom were connected to the film industry. We had Darwin Joston star of Assault on Precinct 13, Jack Nance from Eraserhead, (whose character Sligo did not stay too long), and some others who never 'made it'. It was fun seeing them ACT their parts.

I also remember that the press was on the attack saying that people who start acting out in real life. It never happened.
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John
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by John »

chaz wyman wrote:I also remember that the press was on the attack saying that people who start acting out in real life. It never happened.
Do you remember the "classic" D&D scare movie, and early Tom Hanks effort, Mazes and Monsters :lol:

Incidentally, there's a low budget British film (made and set in Scotland) called Gamerz, which almost no one has seen (I saw it on Scottish TV a little while back), that offers a much more sympathetic portrayal of "geeky" gamers.
chaz wyman
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by chaz wyman »

John wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:I also remember that the press was on the attack saying that people who start acting out in real life. It never happened.
Do you remember the "classic" D&D scare movie, and early Tom Hanks effort, Mazes and Monsters :lol:

Incidentally, there's a low budget British film (made and set in Scotland) called Gamerz, which almost no one has seen (I saw it on Scottish TV a little while back), that offers a much more sympathetic portrayal of "geeky" gamers.
I don't remember seeing either film. But it is amazing how these things can grow into a frenzy including Urban Myths, news items and other scare stories.
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Kayla
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by Kayla »

my dad told me about the D&D causes suicides and satan worship scare in the mid 80s

he was old enough that he did not have to worry about what his parents thought but some of the crap the younger players had to deal with is scary

he also showed me a copy of dark dungeons by Jack chick

it is very scary but at the same time so unintentionally funny i almost peed myself laughing

for those unfamiliar with that old classic

http://www.humpin.org/mst3kdd/
chaz wyman
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by chaz wyman »

Kayla wrote:my dad told me about the D&D causes suicides and satan worship scare in the mid 80s

he was old enough that he did not have to worry about what his parents thought but some of the crap the younger players had to deal with is scary

he also showed me a copy of dark dungeons by Jack chick

it is very scary but at the same time so unintentionally funny i almost peed myself laughing

for those unfamiliar with that old classic

http://www.humpin.org/mst3kdd/
The media love scare stories.
The fact is that there wasn't a single case of suicide that could be attributed to D&D alone, and the rate of suicides amongst D&Ders was not higher then those that did not play.
The case is that if you are going to commit suicide and happen to be a D&Der then you will attach meaning to THAT whilst you are killing yourself. But that would be the case with any extra-mural activity.
These myths, like conspiracy theories are ways for people to find attributable causes that let them, and society off-the-hook. So that when Kennedy was shot, no one wanted to believe that a lone gunman was responsible - that was too difficult to bear. Instead a 100 conspiracy theories had to be invented to cover up the truth of their own cognitive dissonance.
In the D&D case, parents do not want to accept that it was something about their genes, upbringing, schooling, discipline or other factors they had a hand in themselves that was the cause of the unhappiness that led to the suicide of their child, they had to blame it on something else; be that Black Sabbath lyrics or D&D - it is a way for parents and teachers to ignore the role they have played in the death of a child.
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Greatest I am
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Re: Buying an Indulgence - Act of Faith?

Post by Greatest I am »

Mike Strand wrote:I'm watching a Public Broadcasting System (PBS) special on Martin Luther.

I have what might be a rather naive question or observation: If I'm a Catholic and I buy an indulgence (not even sure they're sold anymore) to be absolved of a sin (e.g.,shoplifting or extramarital sex), am I not, by paying the money, repenting of the sin and expressing faith that God will forgive me?

Leave aside the morality of the Church accepting money from me in this situation -- have I not demonstrated my faith in a fundamental Christian principle -- repentance and forgiveness of sin?

What is the difference between this and confessing my faith in Jesus as a Lutheran or Baptist and paying tithes and offerings to my local church? Again, focus on me and my faith, not the morality of my local Protestant church willing to accept money from me as a demonstration of my faith.
Indulgences sold by religions are a scam.

The victim/sinner believes that his sins have been cleared thanks to God accepting a bribe.
The sinner must also believe that someone in his religion has checked with God and God approves even as scriptures say otherwise.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Churches speak for a God that they do not know.

It is all a profitable myth to them. Churches know this but the believer does not.
Churches are in the guilt creation business and profits are good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Regards
DL
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