Arising_uk wrote:..nameless.. wrote:Schroedinger's Cat? The one that is alive and dead and both and all states between at the same moment?
A perfect illustration!
Nope, the good old logical cat sitting upon a mat.
Are you inferring that Schroedinger's cat is 'illogical?
The 'cat' being on the mat or off the mat are two Perspectives of the same One Reality.
how can the cat be both on and not on the mat simultaneously? Exactly! It can't and when its not its called false and when it is its called true.
Assuming that everything is true (which it is *__-), I would question how can this be true? How can a cai be both on and off the mat?
Obviously, our perception of the cat snooozing on the mat is direct evidence of the 'cat on the mat'.
'Cat'; defined.
'Mat'; defined.
'On'; hmmm, the wheel doesn't pop into place so quickly on this one.
So, we plug into the equation the term 'Perspective'. This would be necessary to define 'on'.
From our Perspective, he rests sweetly 'on' the mat.
Let's change the Perspective a bit.
How about a microbe living on that mat.
There's some sort of material texture on the mat, 'hemp bristle or woven', even lint, is sufficient for the microbe to take himself away from his celfone, notice the great skyblocking cloud that just settled to rest and purrrr on top of the 'trees'!
I hope he never reaches the mat, I hope that he is never 'on the mat' because he is not now 'on the mat!
So from your perspective, the cat certainly 'is' on the mat! A True statement.
From the microbe's Perspective, the cat is suspended above the mat, and hence, 'not' on the mat. An also True statement.
I am talking about Logic and the ideas of truth and falsity.
Of course! So am I.
its called Logic.
'Logic' is an extremely limited tool of understanding Reality as it is! It is perfect for what it can do, though, no argument.
Quantum physics data has pretty much gutted the foundations and axions of 'logic' as it has been defined.
But, alongside other 'tools', i'm fine with it as a means of knowing.
It is 'logic' that shreds the One Reality, so that it can 'reconnect the dots'. But the resultant chicken scratch will never come close to the Reality before fragmentation.
It is a matter of Perspective!
It may well be a matter of perceiving the cat upon the mat but its a matter of the state of affair being the case, not just a matter of someones perspective if its true or false and no matter what ones perspective is it cannot be the case that the cat is both sitting and not sitting upon the mat.
I have been fascinated by your usage of the phrase; "state of affairs".
As far as I can see, the only 'state of affairs' is 'Truth'! Reality! The entire Universe Is as We Are! One "state of affairs", the 'state' of Reality! Which is singly all inclusive!
So I guess that 'logically', there are many little 'states of affairs' and many more in them!! And so on. How many different 'states of affairs', exactly, do you think exist? Infinite? 42?
Everything can be said to be both true and false, as they are merely two perspectives of the same Reality!
No, everything can be tested to be true or false,
Wellll, there are 'tests', and there are 'tests'... if you know what I mean!
not that things can be both true and false.
We know better now. *__-
Science is concerned exactly with discovering which of the states of affairs that Logic calls the contingent propositions are true and which are false.
And philosophy informs science. Science is one feeder branch on the tree of philosophy!
With a wave of our mind, we can tell science how a whole area of inquiry will be successful or not. One good universal definition of Knowledge, and the whole of epistemology hits the dust, and good thought can be put to better use.
Cards over, that definition is;
"Knowledge; "that which is perceived!""
If you want cheap and easy then Logic provides, all the tautologies are necessarily true and can never be false and all the contradictions are necessarily false and can never be true,
Which is why 'tautologies' are considered logical fallacies!
The tautologies are the necessary propositions,
Yet not logical.
A house built on shaky cards has served us fairly well so far, but the weather outside is frightful, and the only warm though scratchy blanket will fall to shreds! Useless in the face of the Reality revealed in the passing of the storm!
Armageddon;
"The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls a butterfly." --Richard Bach
the contingent propositions that can be either true or false but not both but we have to test for those.
Human tests or microbe tests? I wonder if microbes need to 'test' for 'true' or 'false'.
There are two outdated and obsolete and irrational terms and philosophies that have seen their day. Good riddance (after all the kicking and screaming are over)! They have no other purpose than to stroke the ego! Vain judgment! Pride! Unworthy of a place in a philosophical dicussion!
Religion, perhaps, might be the perfect context for such a prideful thing to exist/flourish!
We are True! You are 'False'!
Burn the witch!
From this, our understand/Perspective of Reality grows!
From the exclusionary vision, it shrinks! We know more and more about less and less!
It is time for our thought process to evolve, to get the critical update! *__-
No idea what you mean by this? My thought is that manys understanding would improve with a grasp of propositional logic.
Only if your 'propositional logic' (obsolete as it is) can get you 'here';
"The complete Universe (Reality/Truth/God/'Self!'/Tao/Brahman..… or any feature herein...) can be defined/described as the synchronous sum-total of all Perspectives!" - Book of Fudd
ALL INCLUSIVE!!!
The First Law of Soul Dynamics; "For every Perspective, there is an equal and opposite Perspective!"
But then you'd have to accept the 'Truth' of exerything, the Reality and Existence of All!
The 'dualists' schizophrenic fragmentation of the One must heal! We are evolving!
Who is unworthy of Love?
I don't know what you mean by "my thoughts". You do not create them, they exist, and you perceive them. There are many that perceive the same thought as you do, all unique Perspectives.
You contradict yourself?
Not at all.
My take is that no-one has the same thought as I do, its impossible as thoughts are produced from the body's perception of an external world.
I have seen no evidence that would corroborate the assertion that somewhere in the body, thoughts are being manufactured and immediately stored for 'future' recollection/memory by certain cells.
I thought 'materialism' an obsolete issue. Exactly what cells manufacture what thoughts?
You are seriously telling me that you have never seen another Perspective winking back at you from the other side of a thought? That you looked at each other and Knew, and then both verbalized synchronously?
Not anything actually creates or makes or does anything
"Reality is a synchrony of moments!" - Book of Fudd
Every moment of existence appearing Now!, simultaneously! One timeless 'flash' of all existence, of 'Self! Knowledge'!
'Thoughts' exist, as does all the rest of existence, we perceive that which (for the moment) Is!
External? Like right on the other side of these eyelids? From the outter epidermis? The outter 'auric' shell? Beyond your 'room'?
I see the 'internal/external' thing like this;
Let a great blank whiteness represent Reality, everyting.
There is not anything to perceive, not anything to be perceived as undifferentiated from anything else. Oneness.
Now, lets draw a circle before us in the air. The size doesn't matter (its how you use it! *__- ), pint-size, moon-size...
Now imagine yourself within that circle. How do you know that you are in the circle? By the boundary, the 'definition', clearly to be seen. There is now an 'in here' and an 'out there'. There is a 'me' and there is a 'you'.
So, here we are at the center of a circle all warm and toasty with all identity 'circle' related.
It is ego, thought, that draws the circles. Our egoic self construct is a construct of those imagined circles that we perceive 'in thought'!
We believe it because that is the way it (we) looks, feels, otherwise we would be mad, no?
Then we erase the circle.
We havent moved a micron, not an electrons single vibration and the circle disappears!
Now where are we? Now who are we? We remain (basically) who we were a moment ago, no? So, Now, who might that be?
Perhaps I have 'atrophic-circulo-dystrophy?
Really 'weak' circles?
Poor boundaries.
I perceive no difference between an 'in here' and an 'out there' other than which way you're facin'!
Two Perspectives of the same One Reality!
In a boundless Reality/Consciousness, everywhere is the 'Center'!
Home is wherever we are!
but its not true that that there is always an equal and opposite perspective.
Yes it is!
Point proven!
Wanna try for two? *__-
If this was the case then there would be no communication, language nor truth.
I don't mind seeing the obsolescence of the word 'truth', considering the horrors the belief in it has bestowed upon us all!
Communication will be clearer and honest and open as no one is discredited, no one is marginalized, no one is too stupid... walls down, knowledge and love flow freely! Peacefully (since there is no 'them', only 'us')!
As for language, I think that the following best describes this Perspective;
"Do what you know to be right, say what you know to be true, and leave with faith and patience the consequences to god!" - F.W. Robertson
That might only impact the 'quality' of communication, perhaps. Leading to less misunderstandings, for one.
Besides, what makes you think that you are the only one that must 'perceive' Reality for it to be (Known)?
I don't, its you who says that for reality to exist there must be a perceiver and since you say its a unique perception I assume you have to say that it must be the only one possible for that perceiver to know.
There is One Reality, One Consciousness, that is perceived from an infinite variety of unique Perspectives that it might be Known in It's entirety!
All existence, ever, a single moment of 'Self! Knowledge!'
Talk about a metaphoric 'Big Bang'!
Brains and organs and thoughts (oh my!) and whatever else, are all perceived, everything that exists is perceived!
I think you are confusing non-existence as a thing.
There is not anything to not exist to not be a 'thing'. Every 'thing' exists.
What doesn't?
You are stretching the concept of perceiving beyond reason. You are what is known in philosophy as an Idealist and a religious one at that.
Oh no! Back up a minute. You made an assertion that in a respectful philosophical discussion is open foe examination. Fine.
Then you dismiss me into some convenient 'circle' to leave at the rest stop bathroom, hungry and alone!?!?
I don't think so. I will sign all my worldly posessions to you the moment you can show mw any other philosopher on earth, ever, that has what I offer! I never plagiarized a thing and resent blah, blah, blah...
This is put together 'here' for the 'first' time ever! So far, irrefutable.
Ego rant over.
But you don't get to play that cheap card! I have never seen a philosophy that cannot be refuted in one way or another (some point or another), either scientifically or in philosophical debate.
I'll point you to the greatest transcendental Idealist, Kant, who points out that because there is phenomena that we perceive it is impossible for us to perceive its grounds, the noumena, so according to you the grounds of existence do not exist
!
Thats right! The word exists, of course. It is fair to say the 'noumena' esists. There it is in black and white! Perceived. Now!
http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/p2.htm#phen
phenomena / noumena
Kant's distinction between things as they appear to us and things as they are in themselves {Ger. Ding an sich}. Although cautious application of transcendental arguments may provide a firm basis for knowledge of the former, Kant supposed, the latter lie forever beyond our grasp.
Things (features of Reality as perceived Now!) are 'exactly as they appear to us Perspectives!! Each and every One of Us!
Knowledge is that which is perceived, and anything and everything that is perceived, all 'Knowledge' ever, exists at the same moment, Now to a single Consciousness! No knowledge is ever isolated from all other perceptions. We can visit the same 'thought' as Da Vinci, at the same moment that he is perceiving it, Now! Perspectives woulf be different, of course.
When there is no 'circle', the center is Everywhere!
there are always states of affairs, just some hold at times and some don't. This is how we get true and false.
I understand the concept. We aren 'evolving' 'beyond that concept', and
this is what I offer!
I still hold the notions of 'true' and 'false' are already obsolete! And good riddance! Stay tuned! *__-
No, this is your confusion about how true and false apply to states of affairs, i.e. existence.
Then please alleviate my 'confusion/ignorance' and explain to me what sort of 'true' and 'false' are not grounded squarely upon Reality/existence?
That would be a delight!
That could be my 'circle' problem. I only see one great 'state of affairs', Reality, the Universe, 'Self!', Tao... whatever works for you...
That is the complete 'Set', Reality, there are many 'state of affairs' subsets, though! All those circles that ego/thought perceives.
The statement "Everything is True!" is a logical statement and can be 'supported' logically.
Not logically it can't.
Really? I think that I have been doing a bang-up job, all these hours!
The sum total of 'reality' is all the tautologies, all the contradictions and all the contingent propositions, i.e. those that depend upon reality to be true or false.
The sun-total of exerything = Reality. Each and every feature of Reality is Real exactly as perceived by each and every unique Perspective!
That includes Perspectives/perceptions) of (thoughts of) 'falsehoods'! The 'false' (sub-set) is subsumed in an all inclusive Truth (complete Set!)!
According to your view it cannot be a subset as there is an equal and opposite for every truth?
I said that for every Perspective (of Truth), there is an equal and opposite Perspective (of the same Truth)!
Experience?
Perception is Knowledge!
If someone tells you to put plaster of paris in your car's radiator to stop thje leak, how do you determine whether the advice will be 'true' for you? Or 'false?
The water will stop leaking. But if you do this you will have a broken engine.
Bingo! Knowledge! *__-
Not necessarily involving 'true' or 'false' but arguably useful at times!
The plaster did stop the leak. True. But it also stopped the car. Not useful.
I don't disagree with the Empiricists, I think you don't understand how true and false works with respect to Empiricism.
I do understand, really I do! I have been here long enough to be thoroughly acquainted with the concepts involved.
I'm pointing past it, to the next stage of our 'evolution of thought'.
You don't need a Magic 8-Ball, you either use your intelligence/thoughts to determine or do the experiment. You will find what is, at the moment, true or not!
But according to you I don't need to do this as "Everything is True"!?
Seeee? A better term would be 'useful at the moment' rather than, as in this case, 'true'. See how it immediately muddied the water that you had to respond thus?
Schroedinger's Cat was a thought experiment to show the absurdity of Quantum Physics or at least to highlight what we mean by knowing something, i.e. its not that the cat is both dead and alive, as this is logically impossible, but that the maths shows we cannot predict the outcome until we check. So in the box the cat is either dead or alive, not both.
It is also true that;
The cat is the quantum probability wave field. The 'undifferentiated potential' that is everything until observed in which case the 'undifferentiated' becomes 'differentiated' by the act of perception! We perceive that which we perceive. The 'quanton' collapses into one or another 'states' of Reality (Perspectives) depending on the Perspective/observer.
Until perceived, it is 'undifferentiated', all states at once! Once perceived, is still all 'states' at once, now perceived by Perspectives, us!
"Consciousness is the ground (all states at once) of all being!"
Conscious Perspectives perceive this or that feature of Reality/Consciousness.
The 'cat' is a large nail in the coffin of your obsolete 'logic'.
To date, every prediction that "the absurdity of quantum physics" has made has been found true 100% of the time! It is responsible for over 25% of the economy, and grows by leaps and bounds every day, and informs every discipline!
If your (obsolete) 'logic' cannot keep up, this is philosophy, change it or dump it!
The old logic had it's place, like sacrifice to the volcano gods, but, well, they frown upon it when they catch you... and... one never quite gets used to being burned at the stake!
Good night *__-
"One good universal definition of Knowledge" is the aim of Epistemology!