zinnat13 wrote:TO THE AUK-
I feel that I have myself clear enough there but, I am trying once again though I was addressing Nikolai not you in the post which you mistaken as addressed to you. I asked him to go through my posts there.
I think it the words "To the AUK..." that misled me in your previous post.
Let me quote once again from my post.
All this happened many years back, when I start meditating. After some time it became a bit like habit for me and it is still intact. So, when I used to meditate, I found there are many such things in the mind which I do not know. While meditating, I often witnessed irrational and unconcerned thoughts.
It was bit like this- imagine that something important happened 3-4 days back like a heated argument with someone. Apparently, it is looking to me that I am done with it and it has no importance to me at this very moment. My mind is not recalling that event so that chapter is closed forever. But, when I start to meditate, and as the concentration increases, I am again seeing the thoughts regarding that incident. They are still very much alive there. I am trying to avoid them to concentrate on meditation but they are just refusing to leave.
This phenomenon unveiled to me a very important fact that, though I am not able to realize it normally but my mind is still discussing the issue in its loneliness. I am claiming that it is my mind so it should do what I want but it is not the case. It is not in total control of my will. If I do not want to recall that incident then who is that other entity which is overruling my will by dragging me back.
Standing at this very moment, I can clearly see that there are two entities fighting each other to take control of mind. One is my will and the second is who is originating those thoughts. I used to wonder that where the real “I” or “me” has gone.
I don't doubt these states of 'mind'. From an NLP perspective the issue arises with the "heated argument with someone", as this could not be happening from the NLP point of view, or if it did, then there'd be no "... again seeing the thoughts regarding that incident ..." as what would be up for review?
Is my will is real myself or those thoughts are real myself?
Or the real myself is something else that is existed independently from the other two?
I think it more a lack of decided outcome from the situation and a lack of technique in communication.
I am not talking about rocket science Auk. I think this phenomenon is easily conceivable. You are wrong in your perception that your mind follows your will.
I think Schopenhauer,et al, correct, but it is just an opinion. Then again, I'm not sure what you mean by 'mind'?
In my opinion, the philosophy is nothing more than three questions; what is happening, how is happening and why is happening. But, ultimately, it depends on an individual whether he wants to go for the answers or not. And, that is what I tried to understand about myself; what, how and why. ...
I can understand how you think this but from my opinion Philosophy has already defined its main characteristics, so the categories upon this forum give you a fair idea of what Philosophy, in the main, thinks it is, Ethics - why should I behave? Metaphysics and Ontology - whats it all about and what the hell is "It"? Epistemology - how the hell do we know anything and what the hell is "knowing"?, Politics - What the hell can we do about it? Aesthetics - Thats pretty! As you can see from the PN forum there are now more current categories.
Let me quote a very famous parable from Hindu mythology that illustrates the mechanism of our mind. ...
Understand, to my 'mind' I'm now hearing 'from my culture here is my view of its assumption of 'mind' '.
There was a father and a son. Father was a very learned and famous religious scholar so people from all over used to see him for guidance. The son thought that he should take advantage from his father and asked him the way to be immortal. Father said that there is no instant way for such things but the son insisted that you know the easy way but do not want to tell me. At last father gave up. He told some mantas (prayers) to his son and asked him to repeat those for 10 times. Father said that if you will be able to do it successfully, you will be immortal immediately but there is only one condition; the thought of a monkey should not come in your mind during repeating mantras. The son became very happy as he thought that it could not be easier than that. So, he sat down and started repeating mantas but immediately the monkey popped up in his mind. He tried for this during his whole life but did not succeed.
From my NLP point of view, a straight bit of manipulation to achieve an outcome that was thought positive by the instigator. Personally, a cheap approach."What would being immortal do for you?", "What do you mean by "immortal"?", "What would being "immortal be for you?", "How would you know when you were immortal?", would be preferred approaches to such a request.
This parable is stating a very simple but by and large unacknowledged fact that there is something in our mind that is beyond our control.
Not to me, it just shows how easy it is to use use words to create thoughts.
Let me put it more simply.
Seemed fine to me?
Imagine that you are in your home with your son. He is playing with match sticks and somehow they lit and a corner of his shirt caught fire. Now, what will you do? You just rub or squeeze that corner immediately even if it hurt your hands. ...
Bad example,what would happen if I had no children? What would happen if my child had died in a fire? Why are you letting your child 'play' with matches?I
Now, we can clearly see that our body obeys us. It follows the commands and it should do so because it is our body and we are owner of it. But, it is not the in the case of our mind as I mentioned in first two quotes. Now, the question arises; why is it so. If we are the owner of our mind then it should do exactly what we will. But, it refuses to do so. This phenomenon gives the impression that there is something there in the mind, which works independently from our will. ...
I think it because of a false understanding of how the bodymind works. What you describe above is exactly the will acting and 'mind' pretty much does not exist in the sense you wish. We are not the 'owner' of our body, we are our body, that it can control itself is the point of being a self-conscious sensing Body.
It is not that difficult to realize. I do not think it requires more than an hour. All we have to do is just lie down and close our eyes and start thinking seriously about anything. Let some time pass and we will find that our mind is not sticking to that very issue. No matter, how hard we try; it will refuse to obey and continue to roam in all directions. Leaving thinking aside, it is even difficult to lie down simply without opening the eyes without doing anything. Something in your mind will keep saying to you all the time to get up and open the eyes. It requires less time than writing a post here.
More interesting to me is how many times the body moves when uncomfortable and how often the 'mind' was involved.
To know, what is inside our mind other than us is spirituality. Philosophy ends here because it uses both mind and thinking as a tool. So, now we need something else to examine the tools. If we have a substance, which weight is more than 1kg but less than 2kg, and we have only standard weights of 1 kg to measure with, then we cannot find its exact weight. We may have millions of standard 1kg weights, but all are useless. We need to have smaller standard weights than a kg to find the precise weight.
I tend to think that once metaphors enter the conversation philosophy is on the out. For me 'spirituality' is clearly the Other that is considered once we have an Identity, so its the "What else is affecting this situation?".
The same is about thinking. Thinking cannot be known by thinking. We have to lower our yardstick and the only other mean to examine our thinking is consciousness but it comes into play only when it is provoked. This provoking demands a certain level of concentration. When this level is breached, consciousness carries the mind on its shoulders and walks on the way to eternity. There are many ways to provoke the consciousness. All prayers, devotions, meditations etc are nothing but just different ways of provoking. One has to choose or find or invent according to his belief, bias, culture and even convenience. These ways are called religions. It does not matter at all which way we choose, because it does not cause any difference. The impact and the result will be the same.
Kind of agree but think it matters much that religion also has ontological assumptions that cloud thought and thinking in many cases. So I think the different religions produce very different impacts and results, even on their believers.
So, it is all about concentration. Serious thinking also demands concentration. If one is very much concentrated in his thinking, then sometimes, his concentration becomes able to touch the periphery of the consciousness. Although, he will not be able to permeate, but can feel it for sure. This is the state of Einstein and Kant also. At this very point, one is able to see the thoughts manifesting and vanishing in his mind. So, one understands the difference between “him” and his thoughts. This state divides the existence of us between two different entities. One is mind/thoughts and other is who is seeing the thoughts. This is what I mean by seen and seer. Two more names I want to add in this list; Newton and Wittgenstein; as far as I understand, with my limited knowledge and resources. I do not like to include people like Socrates and Buddha in this list. Their state is beyond and I do want to mitigate their status. ...
Can't much disagree with this, not how I'd say or understand it but I think I get the gist.
To understand what I am trying to say, here is one more quote from thread ‘aphilosophy’.
The basic problem is that we want instant answers written somewhere or told by anyone, but it is a matter of experience, not just being informed about it. If mere information was enough then, just by reading the phrase “just be there” was quite enough to enable all of us to be Buddha. We spend hours, days, weeks, months and even years to know what the minds of others say; but not ready to know what our mind have to say as we consider it the wastage of time.
Let me put it in this way.
A father has two sons. When they become 10 years old, the father brings them a football and a book about the football. One chooses the book while the other goes for the boll. Another 10 years passed. In the meantime, former has read all the literature about the game. He knows each and everything; like history, great players, strategies, etc. but the second one is only interested in playing with his friends in the backyard. So, we have two entirely different kinds of personalities. We have a person who can discuss, give speeches and even write books about the game but he is not even able to kick the ball properly; while the second one do not know anything else but how to play with the ball on the ground.
Now, I want to ask a very simple question and that is; who has the knowledge of football.
The question will answer all by itself if put slight differently and that is; who is able to play football.
It is neither spirituality nor theism. I am in total agreement with the atheism that there is absolutely no need to have faith in God or any likewise entity but, at least, we should have faith in our mind because we all know that it is for real. What is the harm in giving it a chance? I think it deserves one.
Depends what you mean by "faith" in this matter? In philosophy Descartes already stated this position, roughly, 'I am a thinking thing'.
THERE IS NO BODYMIND BUT THERE IS BODY AND MIND. WE DO NOT OWN OUR MIND BUT, ON THE CONTRARY, OUR MIND OWNS US.
What 'us' is there that can be 'owned' by this 'mind'? No body, no mind.
It looks a bit oversaid but it is not. If we examine ourselves objectively, then we will find exactly the same. A smoker, drinker or drug addict knows for sure that all these things will harm him, but still he cannot refrain himself from the temptation. Why? We all have emotions; both good and bad ones. Every one of knows that anger, hate, jealously etc are bad for us, then why we are not able to through them out of our mind. Why they haunt us again and again? I am very much sure that no human on the earth would agree that he wants to be angry of frustrated but it still happens. Why? It is not the case that we do not want get rid of all this but we are just unable to do it. I challenge you to show me a single human on the earth who owns his mind. This is the very reason that I say that we cannot stop our mind from thinking even for a moment. It is beyond our control.
I never said we can stop thought as its pretty much perception but 'thinking' can be experienced in a variety of modes I think. I don't think there are 'good' or 'bad' emotions, just situations where they can be appropriate or not. I think some of the New Code NLP people I have met have come the closest to 'owning' their 'mind', although a few religious types I've met have seemed pretty sound.
So, my dear friend, if you can still able to see your owner in the mirror, then it is OK. I have nothing more to say.
I am the 'owner' seeing itself in the mirror.
Your comment about Mohammad is not a philosophical one. You have made a much generalized statement viewing the fanatic version of Islam. If you want to understand the Islam and Mohammad, then you should look for Sufism as it represents the true essence of Islam.
This is an opinion that many Muslims would disagree with.
There is a very renowned scholar in the name of IBN AL ARABI. There is too much about him on the net. You can find it easily. Other than this, you may have a look at this link.
It is quite difficult to sum up Mohammad in a post but I just want to put a saying of him.
One of his followers asked him that how should a Muslim live his life.
He answered him that just like a traveler.
Let us see how a philosopher in you interprets this.
I'll take a look but from my point of view it'll be something like, "Be open, honest and enjoy the journey with anticipation but not expectation that you will make it". Although on the whole I find responses like Mohammad's and the other religious vague and allusive.