Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventually..

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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blackbox
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by blackbox »

attofishpi wrote:Sure, i'll have a discussion with regards to free will, but first i would like your answer.
Ok. My position is that the entity you call "God" is so different to my undersatnding of that term, that my answer would be "no".

Correct me if I've misunderstood, but you're saying that humans (or whatever we evolve into, or some highly intelligent future species, whatever) will become capable of producing technology that can deliver virtual realities indistinguishable from reality and that these will be used because they are more efficient.

I agree such capabilities can be seen as godlike. But, using a fairly traditional monotheistic understanding of the god concept (christian), such godlike powers don't qualify to be called god. Being able to create actual universes from scratch, and being able to be omniscient and omnipotent within them, would be closer. But just mucking round with existing creatures doesn't come close enough for me.

I imagine that we are not that far off from producing images/experiences indistinguishable from reality. That will bring in new dynamics... instead of spell-checkers we'll need reality-checkers...

I also see that you put quotes round "God", so you are not saying an actual god, but a godlike creature/technology. In other words, I don't disagree with you, just that I wouldn't call this ability/technology "god". The other thing in the back of my mind concerns any prediction or forecast... I'm aware of how absurd previous predictions have been, how utterly incapable people have been in the past at guessing about the future, so I take them all with a grain of salt.
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attofishpi
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by attofishpi »

blackbox wrote:
attofishpi wrote:Sure, i'll have a discussion with regards to free will, but first i would like your answer.
Ok. My position is that the entity you call "God" is so different to my undersatnding of that term, that my answer would be "no".

Correct me if I've misunderstood, but you're saying that humans (or whatever we evolve into, or some highly intelligent future species, whatever) will become capable of producing technology that can deliver virtual realities indistinguishable from reality and that these will be used because they are more efficient.

I agree such capabilities can be seen as godlike. But, using a fairly traditional monotheistic understanding of the god concept (christian), such godlike powers don't qualify to be called god. Being able to create actual universes from scratch, and being able to be omniscient and omnipotent within them, would be closer. But just mucking round with existing creatures doesn't come close enough for me.

I imagine that we are not that far off from producing images/experiences indistinguishable from reality. That will bring in new dynamics... instead of spell-checkers we'll need reality-checkers...

I also see that you put quotes round "God", so you are not saying an actual god, but a godlike creature/technology. In other words, I don't disagree with you, just that I wouldn't call this ability/technology "god". The other thing in the back of my mind concerns any prediction or forecast... I'm aware of how absurd previous predictions have been, how utterly incapable people have been in the past at guessing about the future, so I take them all with a grain of salt.
I like your answer blackbox. You are right in that i put quotes around the word 'God' to differentiate it from denoting a traditional doctrinal God.
In this 'forecasted' reality, a person could come to you and turn a glass of water into wine. If you were none the wiser in relation to the true nature of reality, well that particular individual could have you believe anything from that point on.

The dilema i have is that i have been a witness to 'miracles'...don't bother to quiz me on that. So here i am, left to ponder the true nature of reality, the point of this particular thread is that i can attack it from what i see as a logical, scientific perspective. The only other way i can comprehend this God is to suggest that it formed logic (and intelligence) from the chaos of the early universe.
chaz wyman
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by chaz wyman »

attofishpi wrote:
blackbox wrote:
attofishpi wrote:Yes...i was waiting for someone to make a point in relation to my posturing on free will. I had considered what yourself and Arising_uk are pointing out, in the past, and had a similar discussion on a forum far far away.

That aside. My point still remains that as entropy increases, intelligent beings with the capability to do so, will find ways to extend their consciousness, their 'existence' as it were. And one way of doing this is to abandon the inefficient material self.
That aside? Don't you want people to actually think about your ideas?
The 'free will' postulation has no bearing on my original argument. And lets face it, we could argue over whether we have free will until the dying days of the cosmos...

Bullshit... Maybe you should read it sometime, Or did you copy it from somewhere else?
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attofishpi
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by attofishpi »

chaz wyman wrote:Bullshit... Maybe you should read it sometime, Or did you copy it from somewhere else?
WTF are you quizing me about exactly? What is 'it'?
Typist
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by Typist »

Correct me if I've misunderstood, but you're saying that humans (or whatever we evolve into, or some highly intelligent future species, whatever) will become capable of producing technology that can deliver virtual realities indistinguishable from reality and that these will be used because they are more efficient.
It seems obvious to me we are already on this road today. The history of modern media seems to illustrate the progression. We have a long way's to go yet until we reach technology like the Star Trek Holodeck, but it seems that's what we're aiming for.
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by Typist »

attofishpi wrote: So here i am, left to ponder the true nature of reality, the point of this particular thread is that i can attack it from what i see as a logical, scientific perspective. The only other way i can comprehend this God is to suggest that it formed logic (and intelligence) from the chaos of the early universe.
The first thing we should do as good scientists is to understand the tools we are using to conduct the investigation, and try to account for any distortions these tools introduce in to the observation.

Thought is the tool we are using. Thought is inherently divisive, that's it's nature.

So, looking through thought, our focus is aimed at divisions between "god" and "not god", "intelligence" and "dead stuff", "free will" and "determinism", "theism" vs. "atheism" etc etc.

So, we typically imagine a super intelligent entity we call God, which is separate from the physical matter of reality.

It seems possible to me these apparent divisions are all illusions created by the nature of the tool we are using, thought.

If we trace the development of intelligence on earth, we see that somehow or another, life and intelligence arose out of non-life.

This suggests a theory that the essence of what we call intelligence is integral to all matter. Instead of a hard dividing line between intelligence and non-intelligence, it could be that reality is a seamless continuum of intelligence, expressing itself in an infinite variety of forms.

So you'll say, but that renders the word "intelligence" worthless! Indeed it does. If it's true that the nature of thought and it's child language introduces illusory division where none actually exists, then all words are seen to be crude tools indeed.
chaz wyman
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by chaz wyman »

attofishpi wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:Bullshit... Maybe you should read it sometime, Or did you copy it from somewhere else?
WTF are you quizing me about exactly? What is 'it'?
IT? It is these ridiculous flights of fancy seemingly garnered from the science/fantasy genre.

That aside. My point still remains that as entropy increases, intelligent beings with the capability to do so, will find ways to extend their consciousness, their 'existence' as it were. And one way of doing this is to abandon the inefficient material self.side. My point still remains that as entropy increases, intelligent beings with the capability to do so, will find ways to extend their consciousness, their 'existence' as it were. And one way of doing this is to abandon the inefficient material self.

Think of it as the big bang...cause and effect...resulting in the universe prior to life. You could predict the end result knowing the conditions of the pack and the velocity, angle of the cue ball. Once life evolves...and the more intelligent it becomes, it no longer exhibits simple cause and effect physics, it starts to exert free will.
These ideas are what scientists would call " not even wrong".
Typist
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by Typist »

chaz wyman wrote:IT? It is these ridiculous flights of fancy seemingly garnered from the science/fantasy genre.
You heard him! Your post is a RIDICULOUS FLIGHT OF FANCY!! Consider yourself debunked!!
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by Typist »

My point still remains that as entropy increases, intelligent beings with the capability to do so, will find ways to extend their consciousness, their 'existence' as it were.
Makes sense.
My point still remains that as entropy increases, intelligent beings with the capability to do so, will find ways to extend their consciousness, their 'existence' as it were. And one way of doing this is to abandon the inefficient material self.
Yup, this process is already underway here on earth with human beings. First machines take over the physical work, and then the mental work, and then the question of why we need bodies emerges.
Once life evolves...and the more intelligent it becomes, it no longer exhibits simple cause and effect physics, it starts to exert free will.
If you want to avoid the inevitable "does free will exist" questions, perhaps you could state the simple pin ball physics starts to become very sophisticated. Or something. Not sure, whatcha think?
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by attofishpi »

chaz wyman wrote:
attofishpi wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:Bullshit... Maybe you should read it sometime, Or did you copy it from somewhere else?
WTF are you quizing me about exactly? What is 'it'?
IT? It is these ridiculous flights of fancy seemingly garnered from the science/fantasy genre.

That aside. My point still remains that as entropy increases, intelligent beings with the capability to do so, will find ways to extend their consciousness, their 'existence' as it were. And one way of doing this is to abandon the inefficient material self.side. My point still remains that as entropy increases, intelligent beings with the capability to do so, will find ways to extend their consciousness, their 'existence' as it were. And one way of doing this is to abandon the inefficient material self.

Think of it as the big bang...cause and effect...resulting in the universe prior to life. You could predict the end result knowing the conditions of the pack and the velocity, angle of the cue ball. Once life evolves...and the more intelligent it becomes, it no longer exhibits simple cause and effect physics, it starts to exert free will.
These ideas are what scientists would call " not even wrong".
You are a short-sighted fool. At least blackbox and Typist are rational enough to see it as a possibility.

I call you a fool because you disregard it as ridiculous without event attempting to explain why. That is a rather stupid stance.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by Arising_uk »

So attofishpi,

A Transhumanist, but Rapture of the Nerds or Human Enhancement? Don't mean this in a catty way, its just how I understand the two main positions. If you don't understand my terms say so and I'll try to explain.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by Arising_uk »

attofishpi wrote:... The dilema i have is that i have been a witness to 'miracles'...don't bother to quiz me on that. So here i am, left to ponder the true nature of reality, the point of this particular thread is that i can attack it from what i see as a logical, scientific perspective. The only other way i can comprehend this God is to suggest that it formed logic (and intelligence) from the chaos of the early universe.
Now you are confusing me attofishpi,
As first you say that this 'god' of yours will be invented by us but now you are saying its already here? What do you mean?

Have you thought that you should apply this logical and scientific perspective to these miracles to resolve your dilema? As science tends to say they are just so far unexplained events. I note you scare-quote these miracles so you don't think them produced by any 'god' and as such are not miracles in that sense, so why the need to comprehend a 'God'?
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by attofishpi »

Arising_uk wrote:
attofishpi wrote:... The dilema i have is that i have been a witness to 'miracles'...don't bother to quiz me on that. So here i am, left to ponder the true nature of reality, the point of this particular thread is that i can attack it from what i see as a logical, scientific perspective. The only other way i can comprehend this God is to suggest that it formed logic (and intelligence) from the chaos of the early universe.
Now you are confusing me attofishpi,
As first you say that this 'god' of yours will be invented by us but now you are saying its already here? What do you mean?

Have you thought that you should apply this logical and scientific perspective to these miracles to resolve your dilema? As science tends to say they are just so far unexplained events. I note you scare-quote these miracles so you don't think them produced by any 'god' and as such are not miracles in that sense, so why the need to comprehend a 'God'?
I have known of the idea of a technological singularity for many years.

YES GOD IS ALREADY HERE. What i am trying to ascertain is WHAT IS GOD?

As obviously i see no conflict in the existence of GOD with SCIENTIFIC principles.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by Arising_uk »

attofishpi wrote:I have known of the idea of a technological singularity for many years.

YES GOD IS ALREADY HERE. What i am trying to ascertain is WHAT IS GOD?

As obviously i see no conflict in the existence of GOD with SCIENTIFIC principles.
Hmm...The TS is not quite the same as the Rapture of the Nerds nor Human Enhancement. Which side do you come down upon?

I thought what you were trying to say was that a 'God' will evolve or be developed, not that a 'god' is already here?

But if you do hold both these ideas then do you not have an issue that there may be a conflict betwen these 'gods' if the latter is ever built? As I thought 'GOD' would have no other 'god' but 'Me'?

If "GOD IS ALREADY HERE" what are you trying to ascertain? You're trying to find a scientific explanation for its existence, why? Do you have doubt about its existence?
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Re: Is it more logical to believe that a 'God' will eventual

Post by attofishpi »

Arising_uk wrote:Hmm...The TS is not quite the same as the Rapture of the Nerds nor Human Enhancement. Which side do you come down upon?
When placing ROtN into WIKIp it appeared to direct me to a TS definition. I admit not paying much attention to it. Not sure what you are digging at with respect to these subjects.
Human Enhancement is occurring already, and as wo\man gets to grips with DNA modification, who knows what the world will look like.

Arising_uk wrote:I thought what you were trying to say was that a 'God' will evolve or be developed, not that a 'god' is already here?
Correct. I was attemping not to polute the debate, and get some rational thought as to how an entity may come into existence with the ability to...er...morph matter for example.

Arising_uk wrote:But if you do hold both these ideas then do you not have an issue that there may be a conflict betwen these 'gods' if the latter is ever built? As I thought 'GOD' would have no other 'god' but 'Me'?
Ha ha...What you fail to understand is that all 'sub' systems have their dimensions under complete subordination to the upper system. Try and take on God. Fat fucking chance. It nose your every next move.

Arising_uk wrote:If "GOD IS ALREADY HERE" what are you trying to ascertain?
What is GOD. Is it man made, that is, created by multiple intelligences out of necessity. Or, did it form logic, intelligence on its own from the chaos of the early universe?
In the latter case. I take every criticism and regret of life back and shed tears for a suffering far more reaching than the pain of Christ.

Arising_uk wrote:You're trying to find a scientific explanation for its existence, why?
Isnt that what humans do, rationalise?

Arising_uk wrote:Do you have doubt about its existence?
No.

Perhaps i doubt whether it deserves my respect.

And Arising_uk - im going to give you a big thanks big 'ups' as it were for such awesome open-minded questioning!! Well done.
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