Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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bahman
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Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by bahman »

How could Jesus be abandoned if God and Jesus are one?
Impenitent
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by Impenitent »

dramatic effect

-Imp
Iwannaplato
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:03 pm How could Jesus be abandoned if God and Jesus are one?
I've heard a number of explanations. One thing a number include, which is correct, is that it is a quote from the OT. Which opens the door for dismissing that he is 'really' or really suffering.

But I think that if that's what he said that's what he was feeling. I mean the ontology of Jesus is very complex. He is God. He is the son of God. He is the messiah. He became a person.

And we are so immersed in the absolute perfection and transcendance of God in the Abrahamized West that any smack of weakness or confusion or personality or emotions (other than righteous rage and divine love) make us antsy. To a pagan a God feeling and doing pretty much anything (rape, murder, petulantly stomping around, falling in love, playing tricks....) is not weird. The Bible dehumanizes God, even though we are made in his image, according to it. People have a lot of trouble with authorities who are not perfect. You have to swallow them whole.

It's so childish. And the emotional pattern there is not restricted to the religious.
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bahman
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:32 am
bahman wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:03 pm How could Jesus be abandoned if God and Jesus are one?
I've heard a number of explanations. One thing a number include, which is correct, is that it is a quote from the OT. Which opens the door for dismissing that he is 'really' or really suffering.

But I think that if that's what he said that's what he was feeling. I mean the ontology of Jesus is very complex. He is God. He is the son of God. He is the messiah. He became a person.

And we are so immersed in the absolute perfection and transcendance of God in the Abrahamized West that any smack of weakness or confusion or personality or emotions (other than righteous rage and divine love) make us antsy. To a pagan a God feeling and doing pretty much anything (rape, murder, petulantly stomping around, falling in love, playing tricks....) is not weird. The Bible dehumanizes God, even though we are made in his image, according to it. People have a lot of trouble with authorities who are not perfect. You have to swallow them whole.

It's so childish. And the emotional pattern there is not restricted to the religious.
Ok. He was suffering and that is understandable. What I don't understand is the absence of God in such a tragic moment. He and God are one.
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by Iwannaplato »

Ok. He was suffering and that is understandable. What I don't understand is the absence of God in such a tragic moment. He and God are one.
That's presented more or less as a paradox, what is entailed by God incarnating and/or sending his son to earth.

I mean, if we accept that God can incarnate in human form and experience pain and human emotions. This entails being a fetus and learning the language (thus certainly not omnicient. He was a carpenter, but probably needed to use a hammer. Nails went through his arms. He has some magical powers, but they were pretty limited compared with something that can make a universe. He raged and overturned tables of money lenders in the Temple. As a deity he could have just spoken in such a way that they all decided to leave. Why get pissed off? Well, because he is some hybrid. A deity and a person. So, not only could he feel pain but also abandonment (of the rest of God, of the all powerful parts of God, of the father portion of the deity and he is the son portion...well, there are, I am sure, many explanations) But It don't think trying to use deduction here makes much sense since we cannot possibly know what it entails for a very powerful deity to become a limited, physically vulnerable life form.
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by Walker »

More importantly, what were His last words? I know what they were. You can look them up, it will do you some good. More importantly, why were those His last words?

I think I know the answer to why those last words were His last words, although not being a biblical scholar the answer may conflict with Christian doctrine, and such a conflict is of course an oxymoron since one is either right or wrong, with shadings of interpretation in-between.

Why do you think those last words, were His last words? And was He a hopin’, or a knowin’?
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:37 pm
Ok. He was suffering and that is understandable. What I don't understand is the absence of God in such a tragic moment. He and God are one.
That's presented more or less as a paradox, what is entailed by God incarnating and/or sending his son to earth.

I mean, if we accept that God can incarnate in human form and experience pain and human emotions. This entails being a fetus and learning the language (thus certainly not omnicient. He was a carpenter, but probably needed to use a hammer. Nails went through his arms. He has some magical powers, but they were pretty limited compared with something that can make a universe. He raged and overturned tables of money lenders in the Temple. As a deity he could have just spoken in such a way that they all decided to leave. Why get pissed off? Well, because he is some hybrid. A deity and a person. So, not only could he feel pain but also abandonment (of the rest of God, of the all powerful parts of God, of the father portion of the deity and he is the son portion...well, there are, I am sure, many explanations) But It don't think trying to use deduction here makes much sense since we cannot possibly know what it entails for a very powerful deity to become a limited, physically vulnerable life form.
Ok. Thanks for writing.
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bahman
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by bahman »

Walker wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:15 pm More importantly, what were His last words? I know what they were. You can look them up, it will do you some good. More importantly, why were those His last words?

I think I know the answer to why those last words were His last words, although not being a biblical scholar the answer may conflict with Christian doctrine, and such a conflict is of course an oxymoron since one is either right or wrong, with shadings of interpretation in-between.

Why do you think those last words, were His last words? And was He a hopin’, or a knowin’?
"It is finished" were His last words as far as I know. Why those words were His last words, I don't know.
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Lacewing
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by Lacewing »

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Because he was a man... a religious zealot... no more the 'son of God' than anyone else... and his imagined God 'abandoned' him more than once... due to non-existence... which Jesus had to acknowledge in his torturous final hours... and which other religious zealots later imagined and framed as an intentional sacrifice to save humankind, and to pump up the story to continue to support their own religious zealotry. Otherwise, Christianity would have ended right there: God fails to save favorite son = God doesn't exist. They couldn't reconcile or live with that. As a result, highly programmable and manipulated humankind has been misled and blinded for eons.
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bahman
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by bahman »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:16 pm "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Because he was a man... a religious zealot... no more the 'son of God' than anyone else... and his imagined God 'abandoned' him more than once... due to non-existence... which Jesus had to acknowledge in his torturous final hours... and which other religious zealots later imagined and framed as an intentional sacrifice to save humankind, and to pump up the story to continue to support their own religious zealotry. Otherwise, Christianity would have ended right there: God fails to save favorite son = God doesn't exist. They couldn't reconcile or live with that. As a result, highly programmable and manipulated humankind has been misled and blinded for eons.
Thanks for writing.
Walker
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by Walker »

bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:52 pm "It is finished" were His last words as far as I know. Why those words were His last words, I don't know.
Last words:

Luke 23:46 KJV
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend* my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

* commend: "to entrust for care or preservation"

**

Why do you suppose He said those last words?
Iwannaplato
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:52 pm "It is finished" were His last words as far as I know. Why those words were His last words, I don't know.
Some Christian answers....
"Before the arrest of Jesus by the Romans, Jesus prayed His last public prayer, where He asked the Father to glorify Him even as He had glorified the Father. He prayed to 'finish the work you have given me to do” (John 17:4). The work of Jesus is to seek and save that which is lost (Luke 19:10) and to provide atonement for sinners whom Jesus died to reconcile to God (Romans 3:23-25; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19). None but the Lord God could accomplish and say with the authority of the God-Man, “It is finished” (John 19:30)."It is finished indicates Christ had finished the redemptive work he set out to do since the first prophecy in Genesis 3 (and likely much before then). Because sin had entered the world, a cup of wrath existed. Either man or God had to drink it. So Jesus set out to fulfill the 300+ prophecies found in the Old Testament, telling how God would come to earth and take our place on the cross.
“It is finished” is the English equivalent to the Greek word “tetelestai” used in the Old Testament. In Greek it means, bring to close, fulfill, to complete. It also means – will continue to be finished.

God knew from the beginning that we would never be able to save ourselves. As the Bible says, we have all sinned against a righteous and loving God. But in his love for you and me, God sent his son Jesus to wipe away our sins and die on our behalf.

We all have a sin debt, we owe God. No matter what we do or could have done, we can never pay this debt. When Jesus was about to die, he said “it is finished” meaning – Heavenly Father, I have paid the sin debt mankind owes you. Jesus wiped away our debt completely and forever.
Tetelestai – The Work Is Complete
In New Testament times, when an employee had completed a day’s work or finished a project, he would tell his boss “tetelestai.” This was to signal that whatever it was that he was assigned to do was now completed. Similarly, when an artist would complete a piece of art, he would have a moment of unveiling where he would declare “tetelestai.” This too was to signal that his masterpiece was complete. No more touch-ups or adjustments are necessary, the work is done. When Jesus came to this world, he told us what his job was: to provide salvation to a lost and broken world.

For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost.

Luke 19:10

So in his last words, Jesus was communicating that the work he came for was accomplished. The task of earning the salvation of the world was completed in his work on the cross. No more additions or adjustments were necessary – salvation was completed.
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bahman
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by bahman »

Walker wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:13 am
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:52 pm "It is finished" were His last words as far as I know. Why those words were His last words, I don't know.
Last words:

Luke 23:46 KJV
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend* my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

* commend: "to entrust for care or preservation"

**

Why do you suppose He said those last words?
Why did he say so?
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bahman
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:20 am
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:52 pm "It is finished" were His last words as far as I know. Why those words were His last words, I don't know.
Some Christian answers....
"Before the arrest of Jesus by the Romans, Jesus prayed His last public prayer, where He asked the Father to glorify Him even as He had glorified the Father. He prayed to 'finish the work you have given me to do” (John 17:4). The work of Jesus is to seek and save that which is lost (Luke 19:10) and to provide atonement for sinners whom Jesus died to reconcile to God (Romans 3:23-25; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19). None but the Lord God could accomplish and say with the authority of the God-Man, “It is finished” (John 19:30)."It is finished indicates Christ had finished the redemptive work he set out to do since the first prophecy in Genesis 3 (and likely much before then). Because sin had entered the world, a cup of wrath existed. Either man or God had to drink it. So Jesus set out to fulfill the 300+ prophecies found in the Old Testament, telling how God would come to earth and take our place on the cross.
“It is finished” is the English equivalent to the Greek word “tetelestai” used in the Old Testament. In Greek it means, bring to close, fulfill, to complete. It also means – will continue to be finished.

God knew from the beginning that we would never be able to save ourselves. As the Bible says, we have all sinned against a righteous and loving God. But in his love for you and me, God sent his son Jesus to wipe away our sins and die on our behalf.

We all have a sin debt, we owe God. No matter what we do or could have done, we can never pay this debt. When Jesus was about to die, he said “it is finished” meaning – Heavenly Father, I have paid the sin debt mankind owes you. Jesus wiped away our debt completely and forever.
Tetelestai – The Work Is Complete
In New Testament times, when an employee had completed a day’s work or finished a project, he would tell his boss “tetelestai.” This was to signal that whatever it was that he was assigned to do was now completed. Similarly, when an artist would complete a piece of art, he would have a moment of unveiling where he would declare “tetelestai.” This too was to signal that his masterpiece was complete. No more touch-ups or adjustments are necessary, the work is done. When Jesus came to this world, he told us what his job was: to provide salvation to a lost and broken world.

For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost.

Luke 19:10

So in his last words, Jesus was communicating that the work he came for was accomplished. The task of earning the salvation of the world was completed in his work on the cross. No more additions or adjustments were necessary – salvation was completed.
Ok, thanks for the addition.
Walker
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Re: Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

Post by Walker »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:20 am Some Christian answers....
"It is finished."

"It," probably refers to the body. His body was finished.

Why does "It" refer to the body?

Because, when we are born the spirit is commended to the body. When the body of Jesus was dying, when it was finished, the spirit was commended back to God, which is consistent with the verse from Luke, i.e., Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.
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