How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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seeds
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Re: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?

Post by seeds »

Lacewing wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:28 pm
seeds wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:28 pmHowever (and setting aside all of this Satan nonsense), I think it is karma itself that is using Trump to help bring down America for all of the imperialistic treachery it has perpetrated across the planet over the last eight or so decades.
I've often thought of the role he plays of destruction and chaos in this grand human drama. I wish there were a true hero to help inspire a more enlightened time for humankind. Else, our civilization may cease as others have before us. It's disappointing to think that we could be that stupid.
Well, as I pointed out to Alexis Jacobi in the Christianity thread, when you have millions of Americans with the same level of reasoning power as the guy in this short YouTube video,...

https://youtu.be/AyN34sFko9w

...then I'm afraid that not even your "true hero" could help us.

Besides, do you actually think your puny "true hero" could defeat a...

...Super Hero...

Image

... :?: :D
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bahman
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Re: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?

Post by bahman »

seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:08 am
seeds wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:11 pm
Yes, bahman, without a doubt, God is definitely fooling us (some more than others).

However, not with malicious intent, but for our own good.
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Prove it that that is God who is fooling us.
I've already made innumerable posts where I have argued that any irrefutable proof of God's existence could be detrimental to humans, therefore, we cannot be allowed to have such proof.

Furthermore, bahman, if you want to play that game, then how about you prove that it's not God who is fooling us.
I have an argument against God. The universe is infinite though (I have an argument for this too). Therefore, any imaginable thing is possible. Good and Evil are fundamental aspects of reality. Therefore, there are Good and Evil beings.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm And while you're at it, prove the following:
1. Prove that Jesus was (or wasn't) God incarnate.
I don't have to since I don't believe that Jesus was God incarnate.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm 2. Prove that Satan truly exists.
If we think of Satan as the most Evil being then He must exist following my first comment.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm 3. Prove that Satan tried to tempt Jesus.
I don't have to. This is what is written in the scripture. I am questioning people's beliefs.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm 4. Prove that Satan took the form of a snake in a place called the Garden of Eden and talked Eve and Adam into eating a "forbidden fruit."
I don't have to. This is what is written in the scripture. I am questioning people's beliefs.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm 5. Prove your earlier claim that you personally talk to "Him (Satan) and His Gang all the time."
This is a personal experience and cannot be shared or proven.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm So, there's the deal, bahman, if you can prove all of the above, then I will make the effort to prove that it is God who is fooling us.
I did prove what was possible. Now it is your turn to prove that God exists and He is trying to fool us.
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bahman
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Re: How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:26 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:09 am Could you please site some verses from OT?
It's not so easy to search under 'emotions' so I went with anger and these arose....Yahweh is the one being attributed with emotions.
Deuteronomy 9:8
Verse Concepts
Even at Horeb you provoked the Lord to wrath, and the Lord was so angry with you that He would have destroyed you.

Exodus 15:7
Verse Concepts
“And in the greatness of Your excellence You overthrow those who rise up against You;
You send forth Your burning anger, and it consumes them as chaff.

Exodus 32:10-11
Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.” Then Moses entreated the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?

Numbers 11:1-2
Now the people became like those who complain of adversity in the hearing of the Lord; and when the Lord heard it, His anger was kindled, and the fire of the Lord burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp. The people therefore cried out to Moses, and Moses prayed to the Lord and the fire died out.

Job 4:9
Verse Concepts
“By the breath of God they perish,
And by the blast of His anger they come to an end.

Isaiah 13:5
Verse Concepts
They are coming from a far country,
From the farthest horizons,
The Lord and His instruments of indignation,
To destroy the whole land.

Jeremiah 32:29
Verse Concepts
The Chaldeans who are fighting against this city will enter and set this city on fire and burn it, with the houses where people have offered incense to Baal on their roofs and poured out drink offerings to other gods to provoke Me to anger.

Lamentations 2:2
Verse Concepts
The Lord has swallowed up; He has not spared
All the habitations of Jacob.
In His wrath He has thrown down
The strongholds of the daughter of Judah;
He has brought them down to the ground;
He has profaned the kingdom and its princes.

Numbers 32:13
Verse Concepts
So the Lord’s anger burned against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until the entire generation of those who had done evil in the sight of the Lord was destroyed.

2 Kings 13:3
Verse Concepts
So the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and He gave them continually into the hand of Hazael king of Aram, and into the hand of Ben-hadad the son of Hazael.

Isaiah 51:20
Verse Concepts
Your sons have fainted,
They lie helpless at the head of every street,
Like an antelope in a net,
Full of the wrath of the Lord,
The rebuke of your God.

Ezekiel 7:8
Verse Concepts
Now I will shortly pour out My wrath on you and spend My anger against you; judge you according to your ways and bring on you all your abominations.

Habakkuk 3:12
Verse Concepts
In indignation You marched through the earth;
In anger You trampled the nations.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/ ... nsequences
Ok, thanks for sharing.
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Re: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?

Post by seeds »

bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:08 am
Prove it that that is God who is fooling us.
I've already made innumerable posts where I have argued that any irrefutable proof of God's existence could be detrimental to humans, therefore, we cannot be allowed to have such proof.

Furthermore, bahman, if you want to play that game, then how about you prove that it's not God who is fooling us.
I have an argument against God.
Well, you're certainly not unique in that regard. Nevertheless, let's hear your argument against God.
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm The universe is infinite though (I have an argument for this too).
The implications of the Big Bang Theory would suggest that it (the universe we inhabit) is not infinite. Nevertheless, let's hear your argument for the universe being infinite.
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm Therefore, any imaginable thing is possible.
I can tacitly agree with that, however, this next part...
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm Good and Evil are fundamental aspects of reality. Therefore, there are Good and Evil beings.
...is a non sequitur with respect to your assertion (your questionable assumption) of the universe being infinite.
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm And while you're at it, prove the following:
1. Prove that Jesus was (or wasn't) God incarnate.
I don't have to since I don't believe that Jesus was God incarnate.
Did you miss the part (in parentheses) where I asked you to prove that Jesus wasn't God incarnate?
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm 2. Prove that Satan truly exists.
If we think of Satan as the most Evil being then He must exist following my first comment.
"...He must exist..." is simply another one of your non sequiturs. How about we think of Satan as being mythological nonsense and leave it at that?
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm 3. Prove that Satan tried to tempt Jesus.
I don't have to. This is what is written in the scripture...
You're missing the point of the exercise. You asked me to "prove" something about God, and I simply returned the favor by asking you to "prove" something about Satan. In which case, something written in "the scripture" is not "proof" of anything.
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm 4. Prove that Satan took the form of a snake in a place called the Garden of Eden and talked Eve and Adam into eating a "forbidden fruit."
I don't have to. This is what is written in the scripture...
see my last response.
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm 5. Prove your earlier claim that you personally talk to "Him (Satan) and His Gang all the time."
This is a personal experience and cannot be shared or proven.
Come on now, bahman, you already shared with us the fact that you talk with Satan :twisted: and "His Gang" :evil: :evil: :evil: all the time. Can you not share some of the details of these conversations? And, again, didn't your mom warn you against talking with Satan?
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm So, there's the deal, bahman, if you can prove all of the above, then I will make the effort to prove that it is God who is fooling us.
I did prove what was possible.
The only thing you have proven is that you're g̶o̶o̶d̶ at evading questions, and have some dubious notions about reality.
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bahman
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Re: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?

Post by bahman »

seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm
I've already made innumerable posts where I have argued that any irrefutable proof of God's existence could be detrimental to humans, therefore, we cannot be allowed to have such proof.

Furthermore, bahman, if you want to play that game, then how about you prove that it's not God who is fooling us.
I have an argument against God.
Well, you're certainly not unique in that regard. Nevertheless, let's hear your argument against God.
Any action has a before and after since any act is causing a change. This means that you need time for any action including the act of creation. The act of creation out of noting includes the creation of time as well. This means that you need time for the creation of time. This leads to a regress. Regress is not logically possible. Therefore, the act of creation out of nothing is impossible. Therefore there is no God.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm The universe is infinite though (I have an argument for this too).
The implications of the Big Bang Theory would suggest that it (the universe we inhabit) is not infinite. Nevertheless, let's hear your argument for the universe being infinite.
Let's assume the contrary, the universe is finite, let's call this universe U1. This means that the universe is bounded by something, let's call this U2. U2 is either finite or infinite. If it is infinite then U1+U2 is infinite, we call this the universe and we reach the conclusion. If it is finite then U2 is bounded by something, let's call this U3. U3 is either finite or infinite. If it is infinite then U1+U2+U3 is infinite, we call this the universe and we reach the conclusion. Etc. Therefore, the universe is infinite.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm Therefore, any imaginable thing is possible.
I can tacitly agree with that, however, this next part...
This is related to the fact that the universe is infinite.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm Good and Evil are fundamental aspects of reality. Therefore, there are Good and Evil beings.
...is a non sequitur with respect to your assertion (your questionable assumption) of the universe being infinite.
This has nothing to do with the universe being infinite. As far as there are beings, what I call minds which are required if there is any motion, with the ability to experience then we are dealing with good and evil which are two different aspects of experience, pain, and pleasure for example.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm And while you're at it, prove the following:
1. Prove that Jesus was (or wasn't) God incarnate.
I don't have to since I don't believe that Jesus was God incarnate.
Did you miss the part (in parentheses) where I asked you to prove that Jesus wasn't God incarnate?
If Jesus is God and Satan is His creature then to me it is meaningless that a creature can tempt the creator. That is what I am questioning in this thread.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm 2. Prove that Satan truly exists.
If we think of Satan as the most Evil being then He must exist following my first comment.
"...He must exist..." is simply another one of your non sequiturs. How about we think of Satan as being mythological nonsense and leave it at that?
Well, I think that the existence of Satan is well-established by now, since the universe is infinite, there exists anything that you can possibly imagine, including Satan.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm 3. Prove that Satan tried to tempt Jesus.
I don't have to. This is what is written in the scripture...
You're missing the point of the exercise. You asked me to "prove" something about God, and I simply returned the favor by asking you to "prove" something about Satan. In which case, something written in "the scripture" is not "proof" of anything.
I already proved the existence of a being who is the evilest.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm 4. Prove that Satan took the form of a snake in a place called the Garden of Eden and talked Eve and Adam into eating a "forbidden fruit."
I don't have to. This is what is written in the scripture...
see my last response.
Well, Satan is the one who made all these stories! We know that human is the result of evolution and not created by God.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm 5. Prove your earlier claim that you personally talk to "Him (Satan) and His Gang all the time."
This is a personal experience and cannot be shared or proven.
Come on now, bahman, you already shared with us the fact that you talk with Satan :twisted: and "His Gang" :evil: :evil: :evil: all the time. Can you not share some of the details of these conversations? And, again, didn't your mom warn you against talking with Satan?
All sorts of conversation. Are you interested in a specific topic? He vomited when I found an argument for the existence of minds.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:27 pm So, there's the deal, bahman, if you can prove all of the above, then I will make the effort to prove that it is God who is fooling us.
I did prove what was possible.
The only thing you have proven is that you're g̶o̶o̶d̶ at evading questions, and have some dubious notions about reality.
How about now?
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Re: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?

Post by seeds »

bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:23 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm I have an argument against God.
Well, you're certainly not unique in that regard. Nevertheless, let's hear your argument against God.
Any action has a before and after since any act is causing a change. This means that you need time for any action including the act of creation. The act of creation out of noting includes the creation of time as well. This means that you need time for the creation of time. This leads to a regress. Regress is not logically possible. Therefore, the act of creation out of nothing is impossible. Therefore there is no God.
Yet, here we are, tangible and existent phenomena suspended in a spatial arena that we call a universe. And every possible approach we have at trying to discern why anything whatsoever exists (be it mind or matter), leads to infinite regress.

In other words, there's just no escaping the infinitely regressing mystery of how and why there is something rather than absolute nothingness.

And the point is that how in the world does the fact that you are bedazzled by one of the greatest mysteries in all of reality, summarily rule out the possibility that the obvious order of this universe may have an intelligent designer?

In fact, the order screams for some sort of intelligence behind it all. Otherwise, you are left with the utterly ridiculous notion that the unfathomable order of the universe is a product of chance. Which, in itself, would be no less affected by your issues with infinite regress and creation out of nothing of which you use to dismiss the existence of God.
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:23 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm The universe is infinite though (I have an argument for this too).
The implications of the Big Bang Theory would suggest that it (the universe we inhabit) is not infinite. Nevertheless, let's hear your argument for the universe being infinite.
Let's assume the contrary, the universe is finite, let's call this universe U1. This means that the universe is bounded by something, let's call this U2. U2 is either finite or infinite. If it is infinite then U1+U2 is infinite, we call this the universe and we reach the conclusion. If it is finite then U2 is bounded by something, let's call this U3. U3 is either finite or infinite. If it is infinite then U1+U2+U3 is infinite, we call this the universe and we reach the conclusion. Etc. Therefore, the universe is infinite.
No, bahman, according to the widely accepted Big Bang Theory, approximately 13.8 billion years ago, the totality of the phenomenon that we call our "universe" was once contained in an area smaller than the dot between these two brackets [ . ].

Then something caused that infinitesimal (extremely "bounded") dot to begin expanding into a bubble that is now estimated to be approximately 93 billion light years in diameter.

Image

Now, logically, the outer (bounding) film of this ever-expanding bubble would be a light barrier of which nothing of any mass on the inside of the bubble could ever move beyond.

Therefore, what lies beyond the bounding light barrier of our particular universe is either going to be absolute and utter nothingness,...

(represented by the blackened area of the illustration, which could indeed be infinite)

...or perhaps other universes...

Image

And the point is that whatever lies on the other side of the film of the bubble depicted in this illustration...

Image

...may indeed be infinite in nature, but it will not be a part of our universe, at least not according to the implications of the Big Bang Theory.
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm If we think of Satan as the most Evil being then He must exist following my first comment.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm "...He must exist..." is simply another one of your non sequiturs. How about we think of Satan as being mythological nonsense and leave it at that?
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:23 pm Well, I think that the existence of Satan is well-established by now, since the universe is infinite, there exists anything that you can possibly imagine, including Satan.
Again, bahman, the limited and entangled spacetime physics of this particular closed "bubble" of reality that we call our universe, is not infinite. Indeed, as mentioned earlier, our universe is but a mere 93 billion light years in diameter, which is not even a grain of sand compared to actual infinity.

Therefore, your theory of infinite possibilities is based on a false premise.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm 3. Prove that Satan tried to tempt Jesus.
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm I don't have to. This is what is written in the scripture...
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm You're missing the point of the exercise. You asked me to "prove" something about God, and I simply returned the favor by asking you to "prove" something about Satan. In which case, something written in "the scripture" is not "proof" of anything.
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:23 pm I already proved the existence of a being who is the evilest.
Sorry, bahman, but the only thing you have proven is that you are prone to making wild assertions about the existence of "evil beings" based on your misapprehension of what our particular (not so infinite) universe consists of.
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Re: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?

Post by bahman »

seeds wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:17 am
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:23 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm
Well, you're certainly not unique in that regard. Nevertheless, let's hear your argument against God.
Any action has a before and after since any act is causing a change. This means that you need time for any action including the act of creation. The act of creation out of noting includes the creation of time as well. This means that you need time for the creation of time. This leads to a regress. Regress is not logically possible. Therefore, the act of creation out of nothing is impossible. Therefore there is no God.
Yet, here we are, tangible and existent phenomena suspended in a spatial arena that we call a universe. And every possible approach we have at trying to discern why anything whatsoever exists (be it mind or matter), leads to infinite regress.

In other words, there's just no escaping the infinitely regressing mystery of how and why there is something rather than absolute nothingness.

And the point is that how in the world does the fact that you are bedazzled by one of the greatest mysteries in all of reality, summarily rule out the possibility that the obvious order of this universe may have an intelligent designer?

In fact, the order screams for some sort of intelligence behind it all. Otherwise, you are left with the utterly ridiculous notion that the unfathomable order of the universe is a product of chance. Which, in itself, would be no less affected by your issues with infinite regress and creation out of nothing of which you use to dismiss the existence of God.
Nothing to something is not a matter of chance but it is a matter of necessity. I rigorously showed that the act of creation is logically impossible.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:23 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm
The implications of the Big Bang Theory would suggest that it (the universe we inhabit) is not infinite. Nevertheless, let's hear your argument for the universe being infinite.
Let's assume the contrary, the universe is finite, let's call this universe U1. This means that the universe is bounded by something, let's call this U2. U2 is either finite or infinite. If it is infinite then U1+U2 is infinite, we call this the universe and we reach the conclusion. If it is finite then U2 is bounded by something, let's call this U3. U3 is either finite or infinite. If it is infinite then U1+U2+U3 is infinite, we call this the universe and we reach the conclusion. Etc. Therefore, the universe is infinite.
No, bahman, according to the widely accepted Big Bang Theory, approximately 13.8 billion years ago, the totality of the phenomenon that we call our "universe" was once contained in an area smaller than the dot between these two brackets [ . ].

Then something caused that infinitesimal (extremely "bounded") dot to begin expanding into a bubble that is now estimated to be approximately 93 billion light years in diameter.

Image

Now, logically, the outer (bounding) film of this ever-expanding bubble would be a light barrier of which nothing of any mass on the inside of the bubble could ever move beyond.

Therefore, what lies beyond the bounding light barrier of our particular universe is either going to be absolute and utter nothingness,...

(represented by the blackened area of the illustration, which could indeed be infinite)

...or perhaps other universes...

Image

And the point is that whatever lies on the other side of the film of the bubble depicted in this illustration...

Image

...may indeed be infinite in nature, but it will not be a part of our universe, at least not according to the implications of the Big Bang Theory.
Here we are discussing philosophy but not physics. Moreover, you cannot embed something inside nothingness.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm If we think of Satan as the most Evil being then He must exist following my first comment.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm "...He must exist..." is simply another one of your non sequiturs. How about we think of Satan as being mythological nonsense and leave it at that?
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:23 pm Well, I think that the existence of Satan is well-established by now, since the universe is infinite, there exists anything that you can possibly imagine, including Satan.
Again, bahman, the limited and entangled spacetime physics of this particular closed "bubble" of reality that we call our universe, is not infinite. Indeed, as mentioned earlier, our universe is but a mere 93 billion light years in diameter, which is not even a grain of sand compared to actual infinity.

Therefore, your theory of infinite possibilities is based on a false premise.
No, the idea of a bubble inside nothingness is wrong if you think about it. That is the same as saying that there was a singularity at the beginning of time inside nothing. You either have something or nothing. But something must be infinite as I illustrated in my last post.
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm 3. Prove that Satan tried to tempt Jesus.
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm I don't have to. This is what is written in the scripture...
seeds wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:08 pm You're missing the point of the exercise. You asked me to "prove" something about God, and I simply returned the favor by asking you to "prove" something about Satan. In which case, something written in "the scripture" is not "proof" of anything.
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:23 pm I already proved the existence of a being who is the evilest.
Sorry, bahman, but the only thing you have proven is that you are prone to making wild assertions about the existence of "evil beings" based on your misapprehension of what our particular (not so infinite) universe consists of.
Or maybe misapprehension is on your side.
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