How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
Well, to me God who is the creator of everything including Satan has power over them. But apparently, Satan could tempt Jesus while He was in the wilderness so it seems that Satan has power over Jesus. My question is: How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if Jesus is God?
Last edited by bahman on Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
First of all, and please forgive me for nit-picking over a minor issue, but seeing how English is not your native language, and seeing how you do this quite often with your OPs, realize that when you write the sentence...bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:44 pm Well, to me God who is the creator of everything including Satan has power over them. But apparently, Satan could tempt Jesus while He was in the wilderness so it seems that Satan has power over Jesus. My question is: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if Jesus is God?
"...How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if Jesus is God?..."
...it is not presenting the issue as a "question," but more as a prelude or preface of an intent to provide an answer to the question (as in here is how I, bahman, suggest that Satan could have tempted Jesus: "________").
The point is that you have the words "Satan" and "could" in the wrong order, and your OP should read as follows:
"...How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if Jesus is God?..."
And secondly, to answer the question, he couldn't, because there is no Satan (except as a mythological character).
_______
Re: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
Correct, this situation makes no sense unless God is playing games with everyone. Such stories about gods by men are so full of nonsense because men imprint their own limitations and desires on the gods, while also claiming that the gods have ultimate power and control. Then, when asked why such a powerful god falls short in all of these absurd claims, the god-believer will also claim it's because God is testing man.
It's such a bizarre and seemingly endless circle of lies that never match up. It's a wonder that men have perpetuated it for so long. I'm guessing they've done so because it glorifies themselves (over women and all else) and gives them imagined self-righteous power. Women have gone along with it because men have been the cultural drivers (for too long), and women have at least appreciated the 'good works' portion of it, since that aligns with their natures.
But for anyone who tells women that they were created from a man's rib... fuck you!
Women could create a better god story... but most of them wouldn't. They don't need it.
It's such a bizarre and seemingly endless circle of lies that never match up. It's a wonder that men have perpetuated it for so long. I'm guessing they've done so because it glorifies themselves (over women and all else) and gives them imagined self-righteous power. Women have gone along with it because men have been the cultural drivers (for too long), and women have at least appreciated the 'good works' portion of it, since that aligns with their natures.
But for anyone who tells women that they were created from a man's rib... fuck you!
Women could create a better god story... but most of them wouldn't. They don't need it.
Re: How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
Satan is the inner voice of Jesus.
It is the temptation that arises in us when we think we have some power.
The road to God is fraught with obstacles.
One of these is the risk of falling into the delirium of the will to power.
It is the temptation that arises in us when we think we have some power.
The road to God is fraught with obstacles.
One of these is the risk of falling into the delirium of the will to power.
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Re: How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
Your OP is problematic.bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:44 pm Well, to me God who is the creator of everything including Satan has power over them. But apparently, Satan could tempt Jesus while He was in the wilderness so it seems that Satan has power over Jesus. My question is: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if Jesus is God?
Looking at Matthew 4, Luke 4 and Mark 1, it's more like Satan attempted to tempt Jesus, but Jesus rejected Satan's attempts. Satan had no power over Jesus.
A better tactic for dispelling the concept held by many Christians that Jesus was God incarnate is to point out the fact that Jesus not only never claimed to be God incarnate, He rejected the notion.
Not that I put much stock into the mythology that the NT writers wrapped around the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel, the allegory can be instructive with the following in mind:
Jesus called the unrighteous to make themselves righteous as He was righteous, thereby becoming sons of God as He was a son of God and becoming one with God as He was one with God.
Jesus also told the unrighteous that they must "deny {themselves]" which boils down to denying Satan's temptations. The words of Jesus embedded in the allegory are examples of denying Satan's temptations.
Where Jesus says, "Deny yourself", it is saying to make a desert, aka "wilderness" for oneself and "deny" Satan's temptations.
Last edited by ThinkOfOne on Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
According to Scripture from "the day he was created (Lucifer/Satan) till iniquity was found in him" which translates he wasn't created to be evil, he became evil, the only solution to this dilemma is the issue of freedom of choice.
We are all created with the capacity to "choose" because without the freedom of choice we would simply be robots, meaningless creatures and without the capacity to choose what value would love have?
We are all created with the capacity to "choose" because without the freedom of choice we would simply be robots, meaningless creatures and without the capacity to choose what value would love have?
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Re: How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
There are so many interpretations within Christiianity and then a modern person can even believe Jesus was the son of God or whatever but not consider themselves Christian and have yet another interpretation. But for the sake of brainstorming here's a shot...bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:44 pm Well, to me God who is the creator of everything including Satan has power over them. But apparently, Satan could tempt Jesus while He was in the wilderness so it seems that Satan has power over Jesus. My question is: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if Jesus is God?
God wanted to understand what it is to be human, so God incarnated as a human and this entails, necessarily, certain limitations or weaknesses. IOW God intentionally limited itself to understand the human condition and also to influence it.
And let's remember that the ideas of God being omni this and omni that are not in the Bible. This kind of mathematical perfection that gives God qualities that likely contradict logical limitations came out of the mental messing around of some theologians. And then it became doctrine for some. It is not a necessary part of monotheism and it is clearly not a part of many polytheisms, animisms, etc. Theism does not have to entail a diety that can make stones he can't life and he can also life them and so on.
But here in the Jesus story we could have a situation where the diety intentionally lowered this power even more.
Re: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
Oh, thanks for correcting my English. I knew it but I was lazy to correct the question. And as regards Satan, I think He is real. I talk with Him and His Gang all the time.seeds wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:28 pmFirst of all, and please forgive me for nit-picking over a minor issue, but seeing how English is not your native language, and seeing how you do this quite often with your OPs, realize that when you write the sentence...bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:44 pm Well, to me God who is the creator of everything including Satan has power over them. But apparently, Satan could tempt Jesus while He was in the wilderness so it seems that Satan has power over Jesus. My question is: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if Jesus is God?
"...How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if Jesus is God?..."
...it is not presenting the issue as a "question," but more as a prelude or preface of an intent to provide an answer to the question (as in here is how I, bahman, suggest that Satan could have tempted Jesus: "________").
The point is that you have the words "Satan" and "could" in the wrong order, and your OP should read as follows:
"...How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if Jesus is God?..."
And secondly, to answer the question, he couldn't, because there is no Satan (except as a mythological character).
_______
Re: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
Thanks for your writing.Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:15 pm Correct, this situation makes no sense unless God is playing games with everyone. Such stories about gods by men are so full of nonsense because men imprint their own limitations and desires on the gods, while also claiming that the gods have ultimate power and control. Then, when asked why such a powerful god falls short in all of these absurd claims, the god-believer will also claim it's because God is testing man.
It's such a bizarre and seemingly endless circle of lies that never match up. It's a wonder that men have perpetuated it for so long. I'm guessing they've done so because it glorifies themselves (over women and all else) and gives them imagined self-righteous power. Women have gone along with it because men have been the cultural drivers (for too long), and women have at least appreciated the 'good works' portion of it, since that aligns with their natures.
But for anyone who tells women that they were created from a man's rib... fuck you!
Women could create a better god story... but most of them wouldn't. They don't need it.
Re: How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
What do you mean by the inner voice of Jesus? Someone cannot tempt Himself/herself.
Re: How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
We are split between good and evil.
The good is none other than being. While evil is non-being.
For evil is division.
While the good is unity.
The purpose of life is to reach good, that is being, overcoming the temptation of evil, that is not being.
Re: How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
Satan is an intelligent Creature. He does not do vain. Satan of course didn't know if His temptation is going to work but He tried it. Apparently, Jesus was strong enough to reject the temptation. But who knows, Jesus could also fail if the temptation is strong enough.ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:11 amYour OP is problematic.bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:44 pm Well, to me God who is the creator of everything including Satan has power over them. But apparently, Satan could tempt Jesus while He was in the wilderness so it seems that Satan has power over Jesus. My question is: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if Jesus is God?
Looking at Matthew 4, Luke 4 and Mark 1, it's more like Satan attempted to tempt Jesus, but Jesus rejected Satan's attempts. Satan had no power over Jesus.
I cannot follow you here. Are you trying to say that some Christians believe that Jesus was a simple man and not God?ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:11 am A better tactic for dispelling the concept held by many Christians that Jesus was God incarnate is to point out the fact that Jesus not only never claimed to be God incarnate, He rejected the notion.
So do you mean that Jesus was a man who was righteous and as a result, He became the son of God?ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:11 am Not that I put much stock into the mythology that the NT writers wrapped around the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel, the allegory can be instructive with the following in mind:Jesus called the unrighteous to make themselves righteous as He was righteous, thereby becoming sons of God as He was a son of God and becoming one with God as He was one with God.
By the way, if that notion is true and when you are righteous then you become one with God then why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" when He was on the cross?
Why does denying Satan's temptation equal to denying yourself? To me, they are different things.ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:11 am Jesus also told the unrighteous that they must "deny [themselves]" which boils down to denying Satan's temptations. The words of Jesus embedded in the allegory are examples of denying Satan's temptations.
Where Jesus says, "Deny yourself", it is saying to make a desert, aka "wilderness" for oneself and "deny" Satan's temptations.
Last edited by bahman on Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
I see what you mean and that is an interesting interpretation. But apparently, Jesus was not a simple man. He has power over nature, He could cure the blind, etc. Otherwise, how could a simple man receive such attention as He received?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:06 amThere are so many interpretations within Christiianity and then a modern person can even believe Jesus was the son of God or whatever but not consider themselves Christian and have yet another interpretation. But for the sake of brainstorming here's a shot...bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:44 pm Well, to me God who is the creator of everything including Satan has power over them. But apparently, Satan could tempt Jesus while He was in the wilderness so it seems that Satan has power over Jesus. My question is: How Satan could possibly tempt Jesus if Jesus is God?
God wanted to understand what it is to be human, so God incarnated as a human and this entails, necessarily, certain limitations or weaknesses. IOW God intentionally limited itself to understand the human condition and also to influence it.
But what if Jesus failed the temptation? I think anybody fails if the temptation is strong enough and the person is weak enough.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:06 am And let's remember that the ideas of God being omni this and omni that are not in the Bible. This kind of mathematical perfection that gives God qualities that likely contradict logical limitations came out of the mental messing around of some theologians. And then it became doctrine for some. It is not a necessary part of monotheism and it is clearly not a part of many polytheisms, animisms, etc. Theism does not have to entail a diety that can make stones he can't life and he can also life them and so on.
But here in the Jesus story we could have a situation where the diety intentionally lowered this power even more.
Re: How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
Yes.
I disagree. Evil refers to a state of affairs, like being in pain. So it is not non-being.
What do you mean?
What do you mean?
I disagree given the definition of good and evil.
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Re: How could Satan possibly tempt Jesus if He is God?
I didn't mean, and I can see how it implied that, that he was like everyone else. But he had to slide out of his mother, learn things, work. He could feel pain and it seems fear and doubt (Thou hast forwaken me) potential temptation and human emotions - though Yahweh had those last also.
Well, that's an interesting idea. Would that have tainted God as a whole, creation, etc.? I think the idea is that despite being human he managed. And that includes his other troubles also. Sort of role modeling for us. On the other hand, if I knew I was a part or THE son, of God, well I think I could manage to do all sorts of things.But what if Jesus failed the temptation? I think anybody fails if the temptation is strong enough and the person is weak enough.