A reason for existence of God

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

K1Barin
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:45 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by K1Barin »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:01 pm
K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:11 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:00 pm

No, but that statement means that you need another time for the creation of time. This as I mentioned in my original argument leads to regress. Regress is impossible. Therefore the act of creation is impossible.
That's why I am saying you need an almighty God, to create time at once, with no need of time to create time.

By the way Bahman, at least you are pursuing a reason for your disbelief of God.
But any act requires time. You aleady agree with this.
I don't agree with this. Check the previous post just now from me.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by bahman »

K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:05 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:01 pm
K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:11 pm

That's why I am saying you need an almighty God, to create time at once, with no need of time to create time.

By the way Bahman, at least you are pursuing a reason for your disbelief of God.
But any act requires time. You aleady agree with this.
I don't agree with this. Check the previous post just now from me.
Ok, I am done with you.
K1Barin
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:45 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by K1Barin »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:19 pm
K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:05 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:01 pm
But any act requires time. You aleady agree with this.
I don't agree with this. Check the previous post just now from me.
Ok, I am done with you.
Same here. Creating takes time or not, we can not agree. So finish.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:02 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:45 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:29 pm
I think what I said to you is correct. Believe it or not.
I know you think that. I believe you do. I also know you're totally wrong, and your answer isn't any good. But I also know I'm not able to convince you of that, because I can see you don't even understand the problem with your view.

So we're stuck.
Does God know His nature?
The question doesn't even make sense. How could the Supreme Being and Creator of all "not know" something? :shock:

But you haven't answered mine, so this isn't a way to conduct a conversation, anyway. You're not listening.
K1Barin
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:45 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by K1Barin »

Now, does anybody want to get to positive weight of 1 and 0 in mathematics of Logic, as a sign for a Loving God?

I am ready to argue on that.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:02 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:45 am
I know you think that. I believe you do. I also know you're totally wrong, and your answer isn't any good. But I also know I'm not able to convince you of that, because I can see you don't even understand the problem with your view.

So we're stuck.
Does God know His nature?
The question doesn't even make sense. How could the Supreme Being and Creator of all "not know" something? :shock:
Well, if His nature is knowable then it means that humans can also reason what is good or evil. We don't need God's intervention, in any case, to tell us what is good or evil. Can you reason why killing is evil? Or can you reason why forgiving is good?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm But you haven't answered mine, so this isn't a way to conduct a conversation, anyway. You're not listening.
Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality? Do you know that we only experience forms, for example, feelings, thoughts, etc.? If what we experience cannot be used to justify what we should do then what can be used to help us to judge in a situation?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:47 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:02 pm
Does God know His nature?
The question doesn't even make sense. How could the Supreme Being and Creator of all "not know" something? :shock:
Well, if His nature is knowable
To Him. That doesn't mean it's "knowable" in the same way to human beings. I also don't know the size of the universe, whereas He does.
...then it means that humans can also reason what is good or evil.
They can't, actually. Left to themselves, they have not a clue about what might be "moral" and not. And you can see it from the very fact that we have so many different secular proposals for what "morality" might be: Deontology, Consequentialisms of various sorts, Pragmatisms of various sorts, Emotivism and Intuitionism, Developmentalism, Nihilism, Egoism in various forms, Stoicism, Aristotelianism and Neo-Aristotelianism, and Neo-Kantinisms, Rawlsian ethics, Feminist ethics, Relativism, Subjectivism, and on and on and on.

All have totally different mechanisms for deciding morals, and yield many opposite conclusions. And secularism has no meta-system to sort out which, if any, could possibly be right.

So human beings, absent God, actually know nothing at all about morality...except that they don't know what it is.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm But you haven't answered mine, so this isn't a way to conduct a conversation, anyway. You're not listening.
Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality?
Off topic again. You're not listening.
K1Barin
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:45 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by K1Barin »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:47 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:02 pm
Does God know His nature?
The question doesn't even make sense. How could the Supreme Being and Creator of all "not know" something? :shock:
Well, if His nature is knowable then it means that humans can also reason what is good or evil. We don't need God's intervention, in any case, to tell us what is good or evil. Can you reason why killing is evil? Or can you reason why forgiving is good?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm But you haven't answered mine, so this isn't a way to conduct a conversation, anyway. You're not listening.
Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality? Do you know that we only experience forms, for example, feelings, thoughts, etc.? If what we experience cannot be used to justify what we should do then what can be used to help us to judge in a situation?
I am done with previous argument, but this is another argument that I want to get to.

No I don't agree that "experience is the only thing that connects us to reality". Basic sciences math geometry physics etc., are based on principles. Although these principles have been developed from experience, but we have accepted them, and we use them on default. If experience shows that they are wrong, we dismiss them, but we don't need experience anymore to accept them. Based on them, we go on with other stuff. And we use them in industry and other things, without needing to experience on them anymore.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:58 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:47 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm
The question doesn't even make sense. How could the Supreme Being and Creator of all "not know" something? :shock:
Well, if His nature is knowable
To Him. That doesn't mean it's "knowable" in the same way to human beings. I also don't know the size of the universe, whereas He does.
What is the difference? By the way, off-topic but the size of the universe is infinite.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:58 pm
...then it means that humans can also reason what is good or evil.
They can't, actually. Left to themselves, they have not a clue about what might be "moral" and not. And you can see it from the very fact that we have so many different secular proposals for what "morality" might be: Deontology, Consequentialisms of various sorts, Pragmatisms of various sorts, Emotivism and Intuitionism, Developmentalism, Nihilism, Egoism in various forms, Stoicism, Aristotelianism and Neo-Aristotelianism, and Neo-Kantinisms, Rawlsian ethics, Feminist ethics, Relativism, Subjectivism, and on and on and on.

All have totally different mechanisms for deciding morals, and yield many opposite conclusions. And secularism has no meta-system to sort out which, if any, could possibly be right.

So human beings, absent God, actually know nothing at all about morality...except that they don't know what it is.
So if humans cannot reason what is good or evil then God cannot do that either.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm But you haven't answered mine, so this isn't a way to conduct a conversation, anyway. You're not listening.
Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality?
Off topic again. You're not listening.
I am listening, you are not listening. You are looking for the criteria which I have given you. Feelings are what drive us, thoughts give us a sense of judgment, therefore a direction. There is nothing left.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by bahman »

K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:06 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:47 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm
The question doesn't even make sense. How could the Supreme Being and Creator of all "not know" something? :shock:
Well, if His nature is knowable then it means that humans can also reason what is good or evil. We don't need God's intervention, in any case, to tell us what is good or evil. Can you reason why killing is evil? Or can you reason why forgiving is good?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm But you haven't answered mine, so this isn't a way to conduct a conversation, anyway. You're not listening.
Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality? Do you know that we only experience forms, for example, feelings, thoughts, etc.? If what we experience cannot be used to justify what we should do then what can be used to help us to judge in a situation?
I am done with previous argument, but this is another argument that I want to get to.

No I don't agree that "experience is the only thing that connects us to reality". Basic sciences math geometry physics etc., are based on principles. Although these principles have been developed from experience, but we have accepted them, and we use them on default. If experience shows that they are wrong, we dismiss them, but we don't need experience anymore to accept them. Based on them, we go on with other stuff. And we use them in industry and other things, without needing to experience on them anymore.
If the experience is not what connects us to reality then what it is?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:15 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:58 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:47 pm
Well, if His nature is knowable
To Him. That doesn't mean it's "knowable" in the same way to human beings. I also don't know the size of the universe, whereas He does.
What is the difference? By the way, off-topic but the size of the universe is infinite.
You don't know the universe. So that's assumptive.
So if humans cannot reason what is good or evil then God cannot do that either.
Not logical. God doesn't have to "reason" what He already knows.

The reason that human beings can't "reason" to morality, because "reason" is a mechanism, not a set of conclusions. It's a method of investigation not a particular destination, a procedure but not a particular product. They may as well try to "mathematics" their way to morality. It would be just as likely to succeed.

Reason begins with premises. Change the premises, you change the equation. And secularism doesn't know what premise to start with. It has to start with something like, "There is no objective meaning, purpose, teleology or moral values inherent in the universe." Once you start with such a premise, you can't get very far.
K1Barin
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:45 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by K1Barin »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:17 pm


Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality? Do you know that we only experience forms, for example, feelings, thoughts, etc.? If what we experience cannot be used to justify what we should do then what can be used to help us to judge in a situation?
I am done with previous argument, but this is another argument that I want to get to.

No I don't agree that "experience is the only thing that connects us to reality". Basic sciences math geometry physics etc., are based on principles. Although these principles have been developed from experience, but we have accepted them, and we use them on default. If experience shows that they are wrong, we dismiss them, but we don't need experience anymore to accept them. Based on them, we go on with other stuff. And we use them in industry and other things, without needing to experience on them anymore.


You are saying:

If the experience is not what connects us to reality then what it is?


We don't need to experiment about everything we do. Some sciences we take as absolute. Ofcourse if we experience something that they can not explain, we dismiss them. What I am saying is experience is not the only thing that connects us to reality.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6604
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by Lacewing »

K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:39 pm
Lacewing wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:31 pm
K1Barin wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:13 pm Fine, everything about a Loving God is imagination. But according to you, so is everything else. So taking responsibility only for no God for what?
I don't understand what you're saying/asking here. Can you rephrase it?
K1Barin wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:13 pmLimited awareness may include the greatness of a almighty, and most Loving God too.
There are lots of differently imagined unseen gods and always have been. Logically, this points to gods as being products of man. You are saying that logic points to a loving god. There is nothing logical about this. There is not a consistently visable/known god, nor is there a loving entity taking care of all the suffering people in the world. No one is intent on saving us from ourselves or anyone else... and no one is going to condemn us. We may like to think or wish otherwise, but it might be best if we embrace the experience with more awareness and flexibility than pretending there's a god in charge.
K1Barin wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:13 pmWhen you say our awareness is limited, why are you imposing it on just existence of God? And not whether God exists or not?
As I explained above, the reality that humankind lives in does not match your claim of a loving god. Nor does it match all of the imaginings of other gods over human history. So many imaginings and claims from the minds of men, and none have ever made themselves fully and consistently known. Instead, men continually make up excuses for why that must be so... and then they continue to make ridiculous claims! It's not logical... and it's ridiculous when theists try to claim that their beliefs are based in logic.
Likewise your claims have no reason to back them up. Just like a fanatic theist and his claims. You are just saying that a Loving God is ridiculous and not Logical. When "some theists try to claim that their beliefs are based in Logic", they bring reasons for it. And some atheists (not all) just call it all ridiculous. Some atheists and true some theists just claim this and that, and call each other illogical and ridiculous, but they don't engage in a reasoning conversation. They basically have the same behavior. It is not all that theists and atheists have their own character and that is just what they are.
Imagination or anything else, I have a good feeling and I think I have a good reason for it, and I want to share. Just that. Now if you can not take it, you may or may not have reasons to bring. About feeling, I am not sure how calm and confident and comfortable and happy that is going to make you.
Clearly you've flipped out because of my last sentence 'it's ridiculous when theists try to claim that their beliefs are based in logic'. So you just went off about that, ignoring my question and comments, and claiming that I did not provide any reasons to back up what I was saying... which I actually did! This further shows how much your imagination is at work and protecting itself, just as I've said.

If you have the courage and honesty, why don't you actually respond to the points I made above instead of just getting emotional about the last sentence? Show me the error in the reasoning I provided.

Also, let's hear some more of your details about your god so that we know it's not your imagination:
Where is your loving god?
Why is your god a 'he'?
Have you physically seen him?
If he is loving, why are so many innocent people in our world suffering?
How do you know all of these things?

Thanks.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:15 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:58 pm
To Him. That doesn't mean it's "knowable" in the same way to human beings. I also don't know the size of the universe, whereas He does.
What is the difference? By the way, off-topic but the size of the universe is infinite.
You don't know the universe. So that's assumptive.
I know that the size of the universe is infinite because I have an argument for that. But that is off-topic so let's forget about that. You however forget to answer my question: What is the difference between humans knowing something and God knowing something?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm
So if humans cannot reason what is good or evil then God cannot do that either.
Not logical. God doesn't have to "reason" what He already knows.
It is logical. The knowledge is structured which means that each piece of knowledge is related to another part. It is through the reasoning that we gain knowledge and understand its structure.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm The reason that human beings can't "reason" to morality, because "reason" is a mechanism, not a set of conclusions. It's a method of investigation not a particular destination, a procedure but not a particular product. They may as well try to "mathematics" their way to morality. It would be just as likely to succeed.

Reason begins with premises. Change the premises, you change the equation. And secularism doesn't know what premise to start with. It has to start with something like, "There is no objective meaning, purpose, teleology or moral values inherent in the universe." Once you start with such a premise, you can't get very far.
What is the objective meaning and purpose to you?
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by bahman »

K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:32 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:17 pm


Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality? Do you know that we only experience forms, for example, feelings, thoughts, etc.? If what we experience cannot be used to justify what we should do then what can be used to help us to judge in a situation?
I am done with previous argument, but this is another argument that I want to get to.

No I don't agree that "experience is the only thing that connects us to reality". Basic sciences math geometry physics etc., are based on principles. Although these principles have been developed from experience, but we have accepted them, and we use them on default. If experience shows that they are wrong, we dismiss them, but we don't need experience anymore to accept them. Based on them, we go on with other stuff. And we use them in industry and other things, without needing to experience on them anymore.


You are saying:

If the experience is not what connects us to reality then what it is?


We don't need to experiment about everything we do. Some sciences we take as absolute. Ofcourse if we experience something that they can not explain, we dismiss them. What I am saying is experience is not the only thing that connects us to reality.
What is that thing that connects us to reality if it is not the experience?
Post Reply