I don't agree with this. Check the previous post just now from me.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:01 pmBut any act requires time. You aleady agree with this.
A reason for existence of God
Re: A reason for existence of God
Re: A reason for existence of God
Re: A reason for existence of God
Same here. Creating takes time or not, we can not agree. So finish.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: A reason for existence of God
The question doesn't even make sense. How could the Supreme Being and Creator of all "not know" something?bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:02 pmDoes God know His nature?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:45 amI know you think that. I believe you do. I also know you're totally wrong, and your answer isn't any good. But I also know I'm not able to convince you of that, because I can see you don't even understand the problem with your view.
So we're stuck.
But you haven't answered mine, so this isn't a way to conduct a conversation, anyway. You're not listening.
Re: A reason for existence of God
Now, does anybody want to get to positive weight of 1 and 0 in mathematics of Logic, as a sign for a Loving God?
I am ready to argue on that.
I am ready to argue on that.
Re: A reason for existence of God
Well, if His nature is knowable then it means that humans can also reason what is good or evil. We don't need God's intervention, in any case, to tell us what is good or evil. Can you reason why killing is evil? Or can you reason why forgiving is good?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pmThe question doesn't even make sense. How could the Supreme Being and Creator of all "not know" something?bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:02 pmDoes God know His nature?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:45 am
I know you think that. I believe you do. I also know you're totally wrong, and your answer isn't any good. But I also know I'm not able to convince you of that, because I can see you don't even understand the problem with your view.
So we're stuck.
Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality? Do you know that we only experience forms, for example, feelings, thoughts, etc.? If what we experience cannot be used to justify what we should do then what can be used to help us to judge in a situation?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm But you haven't answered mine, so this isn't a way to conduct a conversation, anyway. You're not listening.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: A reason for existence of God
To Him. That doesn't mean it's "knowable" in the same way to human beings. I also don't know the size of the universe, whereas He does.
They can't, actually. Left to themselves, they have not a clue about what might be "moral" and not. And you can see it from the very fact that we have so many different secular proposals for what "morality" might be: Deontology, Consequentialisms of various sorts, Pragmatisms of various sorts, Emotivism and Intuitionism, Developmentalism, Nihilism, Egoism in various forms, Stoicism, Aristotelianism and Neo-Aristotelianism, and Neo-Kantinisms, Rawlsian ethics, Feminist ethics, Relativism, Subjectivism, and on and on and on....then it means that humans can also reason what is good or evil.
All have totally different mechanisms for deciding morals, and yield many opposite conclusions. And secularism has no meta-system to sort out which, if any, could possibly be right.
So human beings, absent God, actually know nothing at all about morality...except that they don't know what it is.
Off topic again. You're not listening.Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm But you haven't answered mine, so this isn't a way to conduct a conversation, anyway. You're not listening.
Re: A reason for existence of God
I am done with previous argument, but this is another argument that I want to get to.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:47 pmWell, if His nature is knowable then it means that humans can also reason what is good or evil. We don't need God's intervention, in any case, to tell us what is good or evil. Can you reason why killing is evil? Or can you reason why forgiving is good?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pmThe question doesn't even make sense. How could the Supreme Being and Creator of all "not know" something?
Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality? Do you know that we only experience forms, for example, feelings, thoughts, etc.? If what we experience cannot be used to justify what we should do then what can be used to help us to judge in a situation?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm But you haven't answered mine, so this isn't a way to conduct a conversation, anyway. You're not listening.
No I don't agree that "experience is the only thing that connects us to reality". Basic sciences math geometry physics etc., are based on principles. Although these principles have been developed from experience, but we have accepted them, and we use them on default. If experience shows that they are wrong, we dismiss them, but we don't need experience anymore to accept them. Based on them, we go on with other stuff. And we use them in industry and other things, without needing to experience on them anymore.
Re: A reason for existence of God
What is the difference? By the way, off-topic but the size of the universe is infinite.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:58 pmTo Him. That doesn't mean it's "knowable" in the same way to human beings. I also don't know the size of the universe, whereas He does.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:47 pmWell, if His nature is knowableImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm
The question doesn't even make sense. How could the Supreme Being and Creator of all "not know" something?
So if humans cannot reason what is good or evil then God cannot do that either.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:58 pmThey can't, actually. Left to themselves, they have not a clue about what might be "moral" and not. And you can see it from the very fact that we have so many different secular proposals for what "morality" might be: Deontology, Consequentialisms of various sorts, Pragmatisms of various sorts, Emotivism and Intuitionism, Developmentalism, Nihilism, Egoism in various forms, Stoicism, Aristotelianism and Neo-Aristotelianism, and Neo-Kantinisms, Rawlsian ethics, Feminist ethics, Relativism, Subjectivism, and on and on and on....then it means that humans can also reason what is good or evil.
All have totally different mechanisms for deciding morals, and yield many opposite conclusions. And secularism has no meta-system to sort out which, if any, could possibly be right.
So human beings, absent God, actually know nothing at all about morality...except that they don't know what it is.
I am listening, you are not listening. You are looking for the criteria which I have given you. Feelings are what drive us, thoughts give us a sense of judgment, therefore a direction. There is nothing left.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pmOff topic again. You're not listening.Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm But you haven't answered mine, so this isn't a way to conduct a conversation, anyway. You're not listening.
Re: A reason for existence of God
If the experience is not what connects us to reality then what it is?K1Barin wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:06 pmI am done with previous argument, but this is another argument that I want to get to.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:47 pmWell, if His nature is knowable then it means that humans can also reason what is good or evil. We don't need God's intervention, in any case, to tell us what is good or evil. Can you reason why killing is evil? Or can you reason why forgiving is good?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm
The question doesn't even make sense. How could the Supreme Being and Creator of all "not know" something?
Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality? Do you know that we only experience forms, for example, feelings, thoughts, etc.? If what we experience cannot be used to justify what we should do then what can be used to help us to judge in a situation?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:22 pm But you haven't answered mine, so this isn't a way to conduct a conversation, anyway. You're not listening.
No I don't agree that "experience is the only thing that connects us to reality". Basic sciences math geometry physics etc., are based on principles. Although these principles have been developed from experience, but we have accepted them, and we use them on default. If experience shows that they are wrong, we dismiss them, but we don't need experience anymore to accept them. Based on them, we go on with other stuff. And we use them in industry and other things, without needing to experience on them anymore.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: A reason for existence of God
You don't know the universe. So that's assumptive.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:15 pmWhat is the difference? By the way, off-topic but the size of the universe is infinite.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:58 pmTo Him. That doesn't mean it's "knowable" in the same way to human beings. I also don't know the size of the universe, whereas He does.
Not logical. God doesn't have to "reason" what He already knows.So if humans cannot reason what is good or evil then God cannot do that either.
The reason that human beings can't "reason" to morality, because "reason" is a mechanism, not a set of conclusions. It's a method of investigation not a particular destination, a procedure but not a particular product. They may as well try to "mathematics" their way to morality. It would be just as likely to succeed.
Reason begins with premises. Change the premises, you change the equation. And secularism doesn't know what premise to start with. It has to start with something like, "There is no objective meaning, purpose, teleology or moral values inherent in the universe." Once you start with such a premise, you can't get very far.
Re: A reason for existence of God
I am done with previous argument, but this is another argument that I want to get to.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:17 pm
Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality? Do you know that we only experience forms, for example, feelings, thoughts, etc.? If what we experience cannot be used to justify what we should do then what can be used to help us to judge in a situation?
No I don't agree that "experience is the only thing that connects us to reality". Basic sciences math geometry physics etc., are based on principles. Although these principles have been developed from experience, but we have accepted them, and we use them on default. If experience shows that they are wrong, we dismiss them, but we don't need experience anymore to accept them. Based on them, we go on with other stuff. And we use them in industry and other things, without needing to experience on them anymore.
You are saying:
If the experience is not what connects us to reality then what it is?
We don't need to experiment about everything we do. Some sciences we take as absolute. Ofcourse if we experience something that they can not explain, we dismiss them. What I am saying is experience is not the only thing that connects us to reality.
Re: A reason for existence of God
Clearly you've flipped out because of my last sentence 'it's ridiculous when theists try to claim that their beliefs are based in logic'. So you just went off about that, ignoring my question and comments, and claiming that I did not provide any reasons to back up what I was saying... which I actually did! This further shows how much your imagination is at work and protecting itself, just as I've said.K1Barin wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:39 pmLikewise your claims have no reason to back them up. Just like a fanatic theist and his claims. You are just saying that a Loving God is ridiculous and not Logical. When "some theists try to claim that their beliefs are based in Logic", they bring reasons for it. And some atheists (not all) just call it all ridiculous. Some atheists and true some theists just claim this and that, and call each other illogical and ridiculous, but they don't engage in a reasoning conversation. They basically have the same behavior. It is not all that theists and atheists have their own character and that is just what they are.Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:31 pmI don't understand what you're saying/asking here. Can you rephrase it?
There are lots of differently imagined unseen gods and always have been. Logically, this points to gods as being products of man. You are saying that logic points to a loving god. There is nothing logical about this. There is not a consistently visable/known god, nor is there a loving entity taking care of all the suffering people in the world. No one is intent on saving us from ourselves or anyone else... and no one is going to condemn us. We may like to think or wish otherwise, but it might be best if we embrace the experience with more awareness and flexibility than pretending there's a god in charge.
As I explained above, the reality that humankind lives in does not match your claim of a loving god. Nor does it match all of the imaginings of other gods over human history. So many imaginings and claims from the minds of men, and none have ever made themselves fully and consistently known. Instead, men continually make up excuses for why that must be so... and then they continue to make ridiculous claims! It's not logical... and it's ridiculous when theists try to claim that their beliefs are based in logic.
Imagination or anything else, I have a good feeling and I think I have a good reason for it, and I want to share. Just that. Now if you can not take it, you may or may not have reasons to bring. About feeling, I am not sure how calm and confident and comfortable and happy that is going to make you.
If you have the courage and honesty, why don't you actually respond to the points I made above instead of just getting emotional about the last sentence? Show me the error in the reasoning I provided.
Also, let's hear some more of your details about your god so that we know it's not your imagination:
Where is your loving god?
Why is your god a 'he'?
Have you physically seen him?
If he is loving, why are so many innocent people in our world suffering?
How do you know all of these things?
Thanks.
Re: A reason for existence of God
I know that the size of the universe is infinite because I have an argument for that. But that is off-topic so let's forget about that. You however forget to answer my question: What is the difference between humans knowing something and God knowing something?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pmYou don't know the universe. So that's assumptive.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:15 pmWhat is the difference? By the way, off-topic but the size of the universe is infinite.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:58 pm
To Him. That doesn't mean it's "knowable" in the same way to human beings. I also don't know the size of the universe, whereas He does.
It is logical. The knowledge is structured which means that each piece of knowledge is related to another part. It is through the reasoning that we gain knowledge and understand its structure.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pmNot logical. God doesn't have to "reason" what He already knows.So if humans cannot reason what is good or evil then God cannot do that either.
What is the objective meaning and purpose to you?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm The reason that human beings can't "reason" to morality, because "reason" is a mechanism, not a set of conclusions. It's a method of investigation not a particular destination, a procedure but not a particular product. They may as well try to "mathematics" their way to morality. It would be just as likely to succeed.
Reason begins with premises. Change the premises, you change the equation. And secularism doesn't know what premise to start with. It has to start with something like, "There is no objective meaning, purpose, teleology or moral values inherent in the universe." Once you start with such a premise, you can't get very far.
Re: A reason for existence of God
What is that thing that connects us to reality if it is not the experience?K1Barin wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:32 pmI am done with previous argument, but this is another argument that I want to get to.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:17 pm
Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality? Do you know that we only experience forms, for example, feelings, thoughts, etc.? If what we experience cannot be used to justify what we should do then what can be used to help us to judge in a situation?
No I don't agree that "experience is the only thing that connects us to reality". Basic sciences math geometry physics etc., are based on principles. Although these principles have been developed from experience, but we have accepted them, and we use them on default. If experience shows that they are wrong, we dismiss them, but we don't need experience anymore to accept them. Based on them, we go on with other stuff. And we use them in industry and other things, without needing to experience on them anymore.
You are saying:
If the experience is not what connects us to reality then what it is?
We don't need to experiment about everything we do. Some sciences we take as absolute. Ofcourse if we experience something that they can not explain, we dismiss them. What I am saying is experience is not the only thing that connects us to reality.