A reason for existence of God

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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K1Barin
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by K1Barin »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:33 pm
K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:39 pm
Lacewing wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:31 pm
I don't understand what you're saying/asking here. Can you rephrase it?


There are lots of differently imagined unseen gods and always have been. Logically, this points to gods as being products of man. You are saying that logic points to a loving god. There is nothing logical about this. There is not a consistently visable/known god, nor is there a loving entity taking care of all the suffering people in the world. No one is intent on saving us from ourselves or anyone else... and no one is going to condemn us. We may like to think or wish otherwise, but it might be best if we embrace the experience with more awareness and flexibility than pretending there's a god in charge.


As I explained above, the reality that humankind lives in does not match your claim of a loving god. Nor does it match all of the imaginings of other gods over human history. So many imaginings and claims from the minds of men, and none have ever made themselves fully and consistently known. Instead, men continually make up excuses for why that must be so... and then they continue to make ridiculous claims! It's not logical... and it's ridiculous when theists try to claim that their beliefs are based in logic.
Likewise your claims have no reason to back them up. Just like a fanatic theist and his claims. You are just saying that a Loving God is ridiculous and not Logical. When "some theists try to claim that their beliefs are based in Logic", they bring reasons for it. And some atheists (not all) just call it all ridiculous. Some atheists and true some theists just claim this and that, and call each other illogical and ridiculous, but they don't engage in a reasoning conversation. They basically have the same behavior. It is not all that theists and atheists have their own character and that is just what they are.
Imagination or anything else, I have a good feeling and I think I have a good reason for it, and I want to share. Just that. Now if you can not take it, you may or may not have reasons to bring. About feeling, I am not sure how calm and confident and comfortable and happy that is going to make you.
Clearly you've flipped out because of my last sentence 'it's ridiculous when theists try to claim that their beliefs are based in logic'. So you just went off about that, ignoring my question and comments, and claiming that I did not provide any reasons to back up what I was saying... which I actually did! This further shows how much your imagination is at work and protecting itself, just as I've said.

If you have the courage and honesty, why don't you actually respond to the points I made above instead of just getting emotional about the last sentence? Show me the error in the reasoning I provided.

Also, let's hear some more of your details about your god so that we know it's not your imagination:
Where is your loving god?
Why is your god a 'he'?
Have you physically seen him?
If he is loving, why are so many innocent people in our world suffering?
How do you know all of these things?

Thanks.
Don't get that much flipped out yourself.

Your questions,
God is inside every bit of universe, fundamental particles of matter and fundamental beings of energy. All over the place.

Call God a she or it. We need some phrase to call God. God's gender is not that much of a matter.

As nobody has not actually seen fundamental particles.

Suffering is a pinch by Loving God to awaken us to reality.

As I can feel inside the fundamental particle that is really me, inside my body.
K1Barin
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by K1Barin »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:43 pm
K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:32 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:17 pm


Do you know what experience is the only thing that connects us to reality? Do you know that we only experience forms, for example, feelings, thoughts, etc.? If what we experience cannot be used to justify what we should do then what can be used to help us to judge in a situation?
I am done with previous argument, but this is another argument that I want to get to.

No I don't agree that "experience is the only thing that connects us to reality". Basic sciences math geometry physics etc., are based on principles. Although these principles have been developed from experience, but we have accepted them, and we use them on default. If experience shows that they are wrong, we dismiss them, but we don't need experience anymore to accept them. Based on them, we go on with other stuff. And we use them in industry and other things, without needing to experience on them anymore.


You are saying:

If the experience is not what connects us to reality then what it is?


We don't need to experiment about everything we do. Some sciences we take as absolute. Ofcourse if we experience something that they can not explain, we dismiss them. What I am saying is experience is not the only thing that connects us to reality.
What is that thing that connects us to reality if it is not the experience?
In the message before I got messed up with quotes. I answered this question above. The above quote is messed up, sorry.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:41 pm You however forget to answer my question: What is the difference between humans knowing something and God knowing something?
You can't tell the difference between all information and very little information?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm
So if humans cannot reason what is good or evil then God cannot do that either.
Not logical. God doesn't have to "reason" what He already knows.
It is logical.
No, it's not. Sorry.

Humans use logic as a method to discover things they wouldn't otherwise or already know. God never has to do that.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm The reason that human beings can't "reason" to morality, because "reason" is a mechanism, not a set of conclusions. It's a method of investigation not a particular destination, a procedure but not a particular product. They may as well try to "mathematics" their way to morality. It would be just as likely to succeed.

Reason begins with premises. Change the premises, you change the equation. And secularism doesn't know what premise to start with. It has to start with something like, "There is no objective meaning, purpose, teleology or moral values inherent in the universe." Once you start with such a premise, you can't get very far.
What is the objective meaning and purpose to you?
I didn't say anything about that, yet. What I said was simply the obvious: that secularism has no belief in objective meaning, purpose, teleology or morality, and hence no basis for locating any objective truth about morals. It lacks any applicable first premise.
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Lacewing
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by Lacewing »

K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:33 pm If you have the courage and honesty, why don't you actually respond to the points I made above instead of just getting emotional about the last sentence? Show me the error in the reasoning I provided.

Also, let's hear some more of your details about your god so that we know it's not your imagination:
Where is your loving god?
Why is your god a 'he'?
Have you physically seen him?
If he is loving, why are so many innocent people in our world suffering?
How do you know all of these things?

Thanks.
Don't get that much flipped out yourself.
I'm not. I responded to you thoughtfully. You once again did not respond to the points I made. But you liked answering the questions about what you believe...
K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:49 pmYour questions,
God is inside every bit of universe, fundamental particles of matter and fundamental beings of energy. All over the place.

Call God a she or it. We need some phrase to call God. God's gender is not that much of a matter.

As nobody has not actually seen fundamental particles.

Suffering is a pinch by Loving God to awaken us to reality.

As I can feel inside the fundamental particle that is really me, inside my body.
How is any of this representative of logic... rather than simply belief, based on imagination and feelings?
K1Barin
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by K1Barin »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:04 pm
K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:33 pm If you have the courage and honesty, why don't you actually respond to the points I made above instead of just getting emotional about the last sentence? Show me the error in the reasoning I provided.

Also, let's hear some more of your details about your god so that we know it's not your imagination:
Where is your loving god?
Why is your god a 'he'?
Have you physically seen him?
If he is loving, why are so many innocent people in our world suffering?
How do you know all of these things?

Thanks.
Don't get that much flipped out yourself.
I'm not. I responded to you thoughtfully. You once again did not respond to the points I made. But you liked answering the questions about what you believe...
K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:49 pmYour questions,
God is inside every bit of universe, fundamental particles of matter and fundamental beings of energy. All over the place.

Call God a she or it. We need some phrase to call God. God's gender is not that much of a matter.

As nobody has not actually seen fundamental particles.

Suffering is a pinch by Loving God to awaken us to reality.

As I can feel inside the fundamental particle that is really me, inside my body.
How is any of this representative of logic... rather than simply belief, based on imagination and feelings?
These are answers to questions based on my beliefs. Did you really expect a Logical proof for every single belief I have? This post was originally based on a reason for existence of Loving God. If you want let's get to that. Don't expect me a discussion like this topic for every single belief I have in post in response to your posts.
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bahman
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by bahman »

K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:54 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:43 pm
K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:32 pm

I am done with previous argument, but this is another argument that I want to get to.

No I don't agree that "experience is the only thing that connects us to reality". Basic sciences math geometry physics etc., are based on principles. Although these principles have been developed from experience, but we have accepted them, and we use them on default. If experience shows that they are wrong, we dismiss them, but we don't need experience anymore to accept them. Based on them, we go on with other stuff. And we use them in industry and other things, without needing to experience on them anymore.


You are saying:

If the experience is not what connects us to reality then what it is?


We don't need to experiment about everything we do. Some sciences we take as absolute. Ofcourse if we experience something that they can not explain, we dismiss them. What I am saying is experience is not the only thing that connects us to reality.
What is that thing that connects us to reality if it is not the experience?
In the message before I got messed up with quotes. I answered this question above. The above quote is messed up, sorry.
Don't you learn physics, mathematics, etc. through learning which learning is nothing but getting exposed to or experiencing some patterns?
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bahman
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:54 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:41 pm You however forget to answer my question: What is the difference between humans knowing something and God knowing something?
You can't tell the difference between all information and very little information?
Yes, I can. But that is not what I am interested in. It seems that you don't understand my question. Let's say that a human person knows X and God knows it too. What is the difference between the human knowing X and God knowing X?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm
Not logical. God doesn't have to "reason" what He already knows.
It is logical.
No, it's not. Sorry. Humans use logic as a method to discover things they wouldn't otherwise or already know. God never has to do that.
But we can exhaust knowledge. Couldn't we?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm The reason that human beings can't "reason" to morality, because "reason" is a mechanism, not a set of conclusions. It's a method of investigation not a particular destination, a procedure but not a particular product. They may as well try to "mathematics" their way to morality. It would be just as likely to succeed.

Reason begins with premises. Change the premises, you change the equation. And secularism doesn't know what premise to start with. It has to start with something like, "There is no objective meaning, purpose, teleology or moral values inherent in the universe." Once you start with such a premise, you can't get very far.
What is the objective meaning and purpose to you?
I didn't say anything about that, yet. What I said was simply the obvious: that secularism has no belief in objective meaning, purpose, teleology or morality, and hence no basis for locating any objective truth about morals. It lacks any applicable first premise.
I am not talking about secular people. I am asking you: What is the objective meaning and purpose to you?
K1Barin
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by K1Barin »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:18 pm
Don't you learn physics, mathematics, etc. through learning which learning is nothing but getting exposed to or experiencing some patterns?
Sometimes we learn theorems based on previous theorems or principles. Not just patterns.
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bahman
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by bahman »

K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:26 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:18 pm
Don't you learn physics, mathematics, etc. through learning which learning is nothing but getting exposed to or experiencing some patterns?
Sometimes we learn theorems based on previous theorems or principles. Not just patterns.
Theorems or principles are only patterns. Do you know how you learn something new from previous things?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:24 pm It seems that you don't understand my question.
Ironic, but yes..I can't imagine what you're trying to ask.
Let's say that a human person knows X and God knows it too. What is the difference between the human knowing X and God knowing X?
Well, lots of things. One is that God always knew it, and the person just discovered it.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm

It is logical.
No, it's not. Sorry. Humans use logic as a method to discover things they wouldn't otherwise or already know. God never has to do that.
But we can exhaust knowledge. Couldn't we?
Human knowledge? Yes. All possible knowledge? No.

You will never know what the true value of π is, because it's an infinite number. God knows. He can know the infinite, because He IS the infinite One.

You don't know what will happen tomorrow. But God knows, because He's beyond time.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm

What is the objective meaning and purpose to you?
I didn't say anything about that, yet. What I said was simply the obvious: that secularism has no belief in objective meaning, purpose, teleology or morality, and hence no basis for locating any objective truth about morals. It lacks any applicable first premise.
I am not talking about secular people.
That's all I was talking about. And it's what we were talking about, at the time. I'm not interested in going beyond that, for the moment, until I get some answers from you.

You said you thought reason could be used to decide morality. I showed you it could not. What do you think now?
K1Barin
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by K1Barin »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:39 pm
K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:26 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:18 pm
Don't you learn physics, mathematics, etc. through learning which learning is nothing but getting exposed to or experiencing some patterns?
Sometimes we learn theorems based on previous theorems or principles. Not just patterns.
Theorems or principles are only patterns. Do you know how you learn something new from previous things?
Theorems are not just patterns. They are Logical dedication from previous theorems and principles. That is how we learn some new things from previous things. And a lot of times we learn from experience, but not all the times.
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bahman
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:42 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:24 pm It seems that you don't understand my question.
Ironic, but yes..I can't imagine what you're trying to ask.
Let's say that a human person knows X and God knows it too. What is the difference between the human knowing X and God knowing X?
Well, lots of things. One is that God always knew it, and the person just discovered it.
Apart from this, what is the difference between God knowing it and a human knowing it?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm No, it's not. Sorry. Humans use logic as a method to discover things they wouldn't otherwise or already know. God never has to do that.
But we can exhaust knowledge. Couldn't we?
Human knowledge? Yes. All possible knowledge? No.

You will never know what the true value of π is, because it's an infinite number. God knows. He can know the infinite, because He IS the infinite One.

You don't know what will happen tomorrow. But God knows, because He's beyond time.
We have been through this: Does God know whether I am drinking my tea now or not? If yes, if I have the knowledge of God through communication with Him, then I could do the opposite! What happens to the knowledge of God if I do the opposite?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm

I didn't say anything about that, yet. What I said was simply the obvious: that secularism has no belief in objective meaning, purpose, teleology or morality, and hence no basis for locating any objective truth about morals. It lacks any applicable first premise.
I am not talking about secular people.
That's all I was talking about. And it's what we were talking about, at the time. I'm not interested in going beyond that, for the moment, until I get some answers from you.

You said you thought reason could be used to decide morality. I showed you it could not. What do you think now?
People are confused. You seem not because you think you have access to the truth. Again: What is the objective meaning and purpose to you?

And I already answered your question. You are free to believe that that is wrong.
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bahman
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by bahman »

K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:52 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:39 pm
K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:26 pm

Sometimes we learn theorems based on previous theorems or principles. Not just patterns.
Theorems or principles are only patterns. Do you know how you learn something new from previous things?
Theorems are not just patterns. They are Logical dedication from previous theorems and principles. That is how we learn some new things from previous things. And a lot of times we learn from experience, but not all the times.
Everything that we learn is a pattern in what we experience.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:00 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:42 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:24 pm It seems that you don't understand my question.
Ironic, but yes..I can't imagine what you're trying to ask.
Let's say that a human person knows X and God knows it too. What is the difference between the human knowing X and God knowing X?
Well, lots of things. One is that God always knew it, and the person just discovered it.
Apart from this, what is the difference between God knowing it and a human knowing it?
I answered your question. No comment?

You're not very good at conversation, are you?
We have been through this:
Then let's not waste our time.
Does God know whether I am drinking my tea now or not? If yes, if I have the knowledge of God through communication with Him, then I could do the opposite! What happens to the knowledge of God if I do the opposite?
God has what's called "middle knowledge." That means that He knows not simply what will happen, though He knows that, of course, but also what could have happened, had things been different than they are going to be, even though they are not. He's not limited that way.

God has complete knowledge of propositions, but also of hypotheticals and subjunctives.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:26 pm

I am not talking about secular people.
That's all I was talking about. And it's what we were talking about, at the time. I'm not interested in going beyond that, for the moment, until I get some answers from you.

You said you thought reason could be used to decide morality. I showed you it could not. What do you think now?
People are confused.
Yeah, they are; but that's irrelevant here. That's not the reason they can't use reason to locate morality.

The reason they can't is because reason can't do that. It needs premises, which do not themselves come from pure reason. It would never work, even if they were being truly rational. Reason's a mechanism, not a set of conclusions.

Do you see that yet?
K1Barin
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Re: A reason for existence of God

Post by K1Barin »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:01 pm
K1Barin wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:52 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:39 pm
Theorems or principles are only patterns. Do you know how you learn something new from previous things?
Theorems are not just patterns. They are Logical dedication from previous theorems and principles. That is how we learn some new things from previous things. And a lot of times we learn from experience, but not all the times.
Everything that we learn is a pattern in what we experience.
We have reached a deadlock in this argument too. We are not in agreement with that theorems are patterns we experience or they are Logical deductions.

If you want let's call we are done with each other on this too!
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