Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Astro Cat
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Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by Astro Cat »

It is logically impossible for God to have created people with omnipotence because there can only be one omnipotent being (lest you run into the immovable object/irresistible force paradox).

However, there isn’t anything illogical about making other omnibenevolent or omniscient beings.

Why did God not make humans omniscient and omnibenevolent to avoid the instantiation of evil and suffering? Why not make angels that way too (to avoid Satan existing as a deceiver)?
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by attofishpi »

Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 am It is logically impossible for God to have created people with omnipotence because there can only be one omnipotent being (lest you run into the immovable object/irresistible force paradox).
I agree with that. However, I have never liked this 'omni' arguments re God, because personally I don't believe God is omni<x>

However, pertaining to what we perceive as reality - yes, God is omnipotent.

Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 amHowever, there isn’t anything illogical about making other omnibenevolent or omniscient beings.
Sure, just take away their free will. No thing can be omniscient.

Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 amWhy did God not make humans omniscient and omnibenevolent to avoid the instantiation of evil and suffering? Why not make angels that way too (to avoid Satan existing as a deceiver)?
As above.

Angels\Demon etc omnibollocks!!
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by Age »

Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 am It is logically impossible for God to have created people with omnipotence because there can only be one omnipotent being (lest you run into the immovable object/irresistible force paradox).
It IS Truly ILLOGICAL to even ASSUME that God had created people with omnipotence?

Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 am However, there isn’t anything illogical about making other omnibenevolent or omniscient beings.
It IS Truly ILLOGICAL to even IMAGINE some God would create ANOTHER being with the possibility of being ALL-knowing or of being perfect or ALL-good.
Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 am Why did God not make humans omniscient and omnibenevolent to avoid the instantiation of evil and suffering?
BECAUSE that would, LOGICALLY, be an IMPOSSIBILITY.
Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 am Why not make angels that way too (to avoid Satan existing as a deceiver)?
ALL human beings are BORN, or created, PERFECT. They, very sadly, and however, LEARN from adult human beings, and so BECOME LIARS, DECEIVERS, 'evil', and therefore CREATE a world of 'suffering'.
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 am It is logically impossible for God to have created people with omnipotence because there can only be one omnipotent being (lest you run into the immovable object/irresistible force paradox).

However, there isn’t anything illogical about making other omnibenevolent or omniscient beings.

Why did God not make humans omniscient and omnibenevolent to avoid the instantiation of evil and suffering? Why not make angels that way too (to avoid Satan existing as a deceiver)?
Because is impossible for God to exists as real.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24704

Thus there is no real omnipotent god to make humans omniscient and omnibenevolent.

It is evident there are real terrible evils and sufferings by humans everywhere, genocides, murders, rapes, torture of children, violence of all sorts, and so on.

Whatever is claimed as a real god is actually reified from an illusion to soothe the inherent cognitive dissonances arising from an existential angst.
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by Iwannaplato »

Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 am It is logically impossible for God to have created people with omnipotence because there can only be one omnipotent being (lest you run into the immovable object/irresistible force paradox).
What if two omnipotent beings were completly in sync with each other. So, they just never want to force the other one to do anything. If one did suddenly want to control, even destroy, the other, this would be coupled with the that's one's desire to be controlled or destroyed (metaphorically a bit like entangled particles: they simply are in synch at all times).
However, there isn’t anything illogical about making other omnibenevolent or omniscient beings.
I think we might be very surprised by what an omnibenevolent or omniscient being would do and be like? In a world with suffering, nto just created by people not being benevolent, woo, that could be a dangerous trait.
Why did God not make humans omniscient and omnibenevolent to avoid the instantiation of evil and suffering? Why not make angels that way too (to avoid Satan existing as a deceiver)?
So, we seem to be dealing with the Christian God.

I wonder what happens when two omniscient beings meet (especially in a universe with free will, thought even without that). It sounds a bit like what would happen if you had two perfect mirrors perfectly opposite each other. Since we make choices, often, based on what others are like, these two omniscient humans would be simultaneously getting complete information about the complete information that the other one was getting (about each other, about the effects of actions, etc.). It seems to me you suddenly flood them both with infinite information - which would not happen if they encountered someone with limited knowledge. A realizes that B knows X as B is realizing that A knows...................................................................infinite chains of explosing information.

Let's say they are walking toward each other on the sidewalk and don't want to bump into each other, reading eachother's body language to decide.................infinite knowledge.

Let's say, because we are fantasizing and don't need to worry about neuronal capacity or even that the information unfolds over time. They each get it all all at once.

Uggh. How unpleasant. To suddenly (or always) have so much utterly uninteresting information.
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by Harbal »

Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 am Why did God not make humans omniscient
Because he didn't want us to know he didn't exist.


Note to fishy: Only kidding, buddy. :wink:
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:31 am
Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 am It is logically impossible for God to have created people with omnipotence because there can only be one omnipotent being (lest you run into the immovable object/irresistible force paradox).
What if two omnipotent beings were completly in sync with each other. So, they just never want to force the other one to do anything. If one did suddenly want to control, even destroy, the other, this would be coupled with the that's one's desire to be controlled or destroyed (metaphorically a bit like entangled particles: they simply are in synch at all times).
The original omnipotent being would still have created a being he couldn't overpower even in the case that it were also one he would never want to push around. It's similar to him creating a rock so heavy even God couldn't lift it, there's no get-out on the basis that he put it in the right place so he should leave it there anyway.
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by attofishpi »

Harbal wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 12:08 pm
Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 am Why did God not make humans omniscient
Because he didn't want us to know he didn't exist.


Note to fishy: Only kidding, buddy. :wink:
Well, that's an oxymoron anyway (not the note to fishy bit :D )
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by bahman »

Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 am It is logically impossible for God to have created people with omnipotence because there can only be one omnipotent being (lest you run into the immovable object/irresistible force paradox).

However, there isn’t anything illogical about making other omnibenevolent or omniscient beings.

Why did God not make humans omniscient and omnibenevolent to avoid the instantiation of evil and suffering? Why not make angels that way too (to avoid Satan existing as a deceiver)?
First, there is no God, by God I mean unmoved-mover and creator of everything. I have an argument against God. Second. Good and Evil are both fundamental aspects of any reality. Individuals understand what Evil is even in a perfectly Good world and vice versa. However, all beings that are subject to evolution and growth benefits from both Good and Evil. That includes humans and other beings. Moreover, Good is not necessarily always right and Evil is not necessarily always bad.
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by Iwannaplato »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 12:37 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:31 am
Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 am It is logically impossible for God to have created people with omnipotence because there can only be one omnipotent being (lest you run into the immovable object/irresistible force paradox).
What if two omnipotent beings were completly in sync with each other. So, they just never want to force the other one to do anything. If one did suddenly want to control, even destroy, the other, this would be coupled with the that's one's desire to be controlled or destroyed (metaphorically a bit like entangled particles: they simply are in synch at all times).
The original omnipotent being would still have created a being he couldn't overpower even in the case that it were also one he would never want to push around. It's similar to him creating a rock so heavy even God couldn't lift it, there's no get-out on the basis that he put it in the right place so he should leave it there anyway.
The difference is s/he/they can if s/he/they wants to and when s/he/they wants to the other wants it to happen.
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by dattaswami »

Astro Cat wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:35 am It is logically impossible for God to have created people with omnipotence because there can only be one omnipotent being (lest you run into the immovable object/irresistible force paradox).

However, there isn’t anything illogical about making other omnibenevolent or omniscient beings.

Why did God not make humans omniscient and omnibenevolent to avoid the instantiation of evil and suffering? Why not make angels that way too (to avoid Satan existing as a deceiver)?
Actually, God did not want to give souls the freedom to choose negative actions. But souls deeply yearned (craved) for complete freedom. So, He gave them the freedom to choose even the negative factors if they wanted. But He strongly advised them not to select such factors by repeatedly blowing these warnings into their ears! If this freedom to choose the negative were not given, the state would be the same state of strict discipline as in the Kṛta Age. Even in this strict discipline of the Kṛta Age, when the freedom to choose the negative was absent, the freedom to choose anything good or positive was present.

To explain this more clearly, we can say that in the strict discipline of the Kṛta Age, we were advised to eat any good fruit. But we were restricted from eating any poisonous fruit. After a long period, we got bored with the strict discipline and so to satisfy us, we were given the freedom to eat any fruit that we chose, including poisonous fruits. Along with this new freedom, repeated advice was given to us to eat only good fruits and not eat any poisonous fruit. In spite of all the excellent advice given by God, the granted freedom caused us to eat some poisonous fruits.

It led to the inevitable punishment, suffering, and the restriction of our God-given freedom. Note that this freedom to choose the negative was our desire. Even though God gave us this freedom, as an antidote, He gave us more than sufficient advice to avoid bad and negative things. This completely frees God from any blame. On one side, we blame God for giving this freedom to choose the negative. On the other side, we criticize God if He does not give us that freedom! God showed the best balance by giving us our desired freedom while simultaneously giving us a strong warning about avoiding the misuse of that freedom. Still, we manage to blame God! In that case, we should suggest a better way than what He did!

Why was bad created?

One question immediately pops up. Why did God create negative or bad fruits? Why did He not create only good fruits? The reason is simple. Good and bad are relative. Can there be good without the relatively bad? Can there be day without night? The recognition of the positive requires the presence of the negative. Leave God’s creation aside for some time. Do we prepare our meals without any hot dishes? Do we produce movies with only pleasant scenes, without a single tragic scene? Is there any game where there are only winners and no losers? If God had created creation with only good and no bad, we would be the first to blame God for creating such a meaningless one-sided creation! Hence, God planned creation consisting of sattvam which is good qualities, and rajas and tamas, which are the bad qualities. This plan of creation is just like the storyline of a movie which is fixed before the production of the movie.


The Kṛta Age was like the childhood of souls. Parents take complete care of the child, without giving any freedom to the child so as to protect it from bad factors. As the child grows into a youth and an adult, he or she aspires for full freedom. The youth wants the parents to only provide good advice and not force him or her to do anything. God did exactly what good parents do to their children. Some grown-up children listen to their parents’ advice and enjoy peace and happiness in their lives, whereas some grown-up children do not listen to their parents and end up in problems.

Do you blame the parents or the grown-up children for their mistakes? If we blame God for the sins and suffering of souls it is exactly like blaming parents for the mistakes of their grown-up children. When parents are not expected to control their grown-up children using force, how can we expect God to control souls using force! If all grown-up children in the world were not listening to their parents, there would at least be a possibility of thinking that there might be something fundamentally wrong with the system. If all the students in a class were to fail, and not a single student were to pass, it might point to a possible defect in the teacher. But we know that there are several grown-up children who listen to their parents’ advice, and there are several students in any class, who pass the examination with a distinction.

Even in this worst age, which is called the Kali Age, there are several good devotees, who totally surrender to God. They follow His divine scriptures which are properly explained by His devoted messengers and His Incarnations. There is a chance that the human parents and teachers might be defective or wrong. But the omniscient God can be never defective or wrong. Even then, God never tells us to follow His advice blindly. He wants us to logically analyze His words thoroughly. This is the last statement told by God Krishna to the soul, Arjuna in the Gita (Vimṛṣyaitadaśeṣeṇa—Gita). God has already given us a powerful intellect to analyze and decide what is good and bad. He also clearly preaches to us again and again regarding the fruits of good deeds and the fruits of bad deeds.

Coming back to our starting point, in the Kṛta Age, the souls were acting, speaking and even thinking as per the direction of God given to them through the divine scriptures. They were like babies in the hands of their parents. With reference to that disciplined state, I had said that souls were given full freedom to choose their actions by God in the subsequent ages. The full freedom given to souls means the maximum freedom that can be given to souls.

As such souls can never have absolute God-like freedom in any of the four ages. In the Kṛta Age, the souls were like robots working as programmed by God. They did not have the full freedom to act as they chose. So, God took the total responsibility for their thoughts, words, and deeds. After a long time, the souls were very bored with that perfect and total discipline. It is just like a child on growing up becomes reluctant to follow the strictly enforced discipline of his or her parents. Neither did the souls want the absolute freedom of God nor did God give His absolute freedom to the souls. The full freedom given to souls, means the maximum freedom initially granted to souls. Later, souls, using this very freedom, chose bad deeds which reduced their freedom and caused suffering to themselves.

In the beginning, when God asked Adam and Eve not to eat a specific fruit, both were following the order of God strictly like robots. In this initial stage, all souls, both males and females, lived in strict discipline as per the laws given by God. After a long time, they got bored of their disciplined life. God understood their feeling of boredom and gave them the freedom to think, speak and to do whatever they liked. God strengthened the faculty of their intellect. The mind is the mental faculty that brings in doubts or different alternatives. It starts an internal debate (Saṅkalpa vikalpātmakaṁ manaḥ). The intellect is the mental faculty that analyzes the various options to arrive at correct conclusions.

When logical analysis starts, it is called intelligence. The expected result of the logical analysis is the right conclusion (Adhyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ). The mind and intelligence did not have much work in the Kṛta Age. Later, God gave freedom to the mind and intelligence of souls after which they started working very hard. The mind is not that important since it only starts the basic doubt which is needed for analysis. But intelligence is very important. When its analysis is wrong, it arrives at a wrong conclusion. When the analysis is correct till the very end, it arrives at the right conclusion. Intelligence is the driver and the individual soul is the owner of the vehicle as said in the Veda.
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by dattaswami »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:31 am .


God is only omnipotent. Individuals only have partial freedom like they cannot control damage of some of their internal organs like kidney etc. God can come simultaneously also in different human forms at the same time. Rama and Parashurama were human incarnations of the same God existed at the same time.

When different energetic or human incarnations exist side by side in the same time (like Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva in the upper world or like Sai Baba and Akkalkot Maharaj in this world), the same unimaginable God exists completely in all these incarnations because addition, subtraction, multiplication and division cannot affect the completeness of the unimaginable God. It only means that unimaginable God is divided in two simultaneous incarnations, but, since both Gods are complete individually and one only, the division is not affecting the completeness of unimaginable God. Division is true, but simultaneously completeness of each half is also true. This only means that the unimaginable God is beyond logic of imagination.


Spiritual knowledge, devotion to God and service with practical sacrifice are the three subsequent steps established by the three divine preachers, Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhva, Who are the incarnations of the three divine forms of God Datta (Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma). God Datta is the root source unity of the first energetic incarnation in which the unimaginable God merged forever making a permanent address for Himself. Such God Datta is the essence of a right divine preacher.
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by Harbal »

dattaswami wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:44 am God can come simultaneously also in different human forms at the same time.
That would be a really cool ability to have at an orgy. 8)
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by attofishpi »

Harbal wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:51 am
dattaswami wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:44 am God can come simultaneously also in different human forms at the same time.
That would be a really cool ability to have at an orgy. 8)
You could have Dani Minogue and Kylie Minogue without any weird guilt trip of them being sisters.
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Re: Omniscience and omnibenevolence

Post by attofishpi »

Harbal wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:51 am
dattaswami wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:44 am God can come simultaneously also in different human forms at the same time.
That would be a really cool ability to have at an orgy. 8)
Today it did dawn on me. I am perplexed, puzzled, bemused, baffled...totally something that requires a thesauras (Harbal, that's not a dinosaur - I looked it up last week)...THAT, out of all that waffle from dattawotsit...you managed to stumble upon that little gem.

It's a bloody miracle is wot it is.
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