Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

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Veritas Aequitas
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Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

I am researching on the Philosophy of Aquinas [Five Ways and his Summas] at present.

I read while Aquinas obviously believed in the existence and necessity of the Revelation, he nevertheless emphasized the criticalness of Reason [Intellect] in understanding the existence of God.
For example, Aquinas do not accept that God created the Universe in time in 6-7 days but rather he argued from reason that the Universe has no beginning-in-Time nor end which contradict Genesis' creation of the Universe.

Aquinas rejected Medieval Theological Voluntarism;
  • Associated with Duns Scotus and William of Ockham[3] (two of the foremost medieval scholastic philosophers), medieval theological voluntarism (not to be confused with meta-ethical theological voluntarism) is generally taken to be the philosophical emphasis on the divine will and human freedom over and above the intellect (voluntas superior intellectu).
    For example, Scotus held that morality comes from God's will and choice rather than his intellect or knowledge.
    Accordingly, God should be defined as an omnipotent being whose actions should not and cannot be ultimately rationalized and explained through reason.
    As such, voluntarism is usually contrasted with intellectualism, championed by the scholastic Thomas Aquinas.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntari ... oluntarism
Aquinas approach to Theology is based on Intellectualism:
  • Medieval theological intellectualism is a doctrine of divine action,
    wherein the faculty of intellect precedes, and is superior to, the faculty of the will (voluntas intellectum sequitur).
    As such, Intellectualism is contrasted with voluntarism, which proposes the Will as superior to the intellect, and to the emotions; hence, the stance that "according to intellectualism, choices of the Will result from that which the intellect recognizes as good; the will, itself, is determined.
    For voluntarism, by contrast, it is the Will which identifies which objects are good, and the Will, itself, is indetermined".[8]

    From that philosophical perspective and historical context,
    the Spanish Muslim polymath Averroës (1126–1198) in the 12th century,
    the Italian Christian theologian Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274), and
    the German Christian theologian Meister Eckhart (1260–1327) in the 13th century, are recognised intellectualists.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellect ... lectualism
Am I right to believe that the majority of Christians who believe the Revelations are critical to their belief would disagree with Aquinas' major thesis?
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Agent Smith
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Agent Smith »

"This is interesting, I've never seen anything like this in the 10 trillion lives I've lived. Don't ask! It wasn't all rainbow and sunshine. In fact all I remember are rainly days. Where were we? Oh, as I was saying - this, this, is amazing! I can't wait to here what you havta say! This is the bottom, right?"

"Haha! A mistake everyone makes! Didn't expect someone with your experience - how many lives? 10 trillion? - to fall too so to speak. It's the top!"

"I'm sorry, I don't think I heard that correctly! Did you say it's the top!?"

"You heard me correctly monsieur! It's not the bottom, it's the top!"

"Aah! I see now what you mean, a stipulative definition, top means bottom. I got it! Nice, nice!"

"No, no monsieur, top means top and bottom is bottom."

"You're kidding right?"

"No monsieur, I'm not kidding or joking or trying to pull a fast one or yanking your chain!"

"Hahahahohohohehehe!"

"Oui, oui, without laughter there is no ... ?"

"Dao! Hahahaha hohohoho hehehe!"
Age
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Age »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:59 am I am researching on the Philosophy of Aquinas [Five Ways and his Summas] at present.

I read while Aquinas obviously believed in the existence and necessity of the Revelation, he nevertheless emphasized the criticalness of Reason [Intellect] in understanding the existence of God.
For example, Aquinas do not accept that God created the Universe in time in 6-7 days but rather he argued from reason that the Universe has no beginning-in-Time nor end which contradict Genesis' creation of the Universe.
OBVIOUSLY 'your' so-called 'researched' is FAILING you.

So-called, "genesis's' 'creation of the Universe', absolutely NEVER contradicts the IRREFUTABLE Fact that the Universe is eternal AT ALL.

See what has happened among 'you', adult human beings, is 'you' have MISINTERPRETED and DISTORTED the three words, 'In the beginning', into there being some sort of 'SEPARATED' beginning, and this has happened because of 'your' OTHER MISINTERPRETATIONS and DISTORTIONS of other words and their meanings, or definitions.

After all, in the days when this was being written, the so-called "scientific experts" among 'you' could NOT even AGREE UPON and ACCEPT what 'time', itself, IS EXACTLY, let alone even KNOWING what the 'beginning of time' could even MEAN NOR REFER TO, EXACTLY.

To be ABLE TO UNDERSTAND what books like the bible are SAYING and MEANING, EXACTLY, one NEEDS TO KNOW what words like 'time', 'in the beginning', and 'creation', among others are REFERRING TO, EXACTLY, FIRST.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:59 am Aquinas rejected Medieval Theological Voluntarism;
  • Associated with Duns Scotus and William of Ockham[3] (two of the foremost medieval scholastic philosophers), medieval theological voluntarism (not to be confused with meta-ethical theological voluntarism) is generally taken to be the philosophical emphasis on the divine will and human freedom over and above the intellect (voluntas superior intellectu).
    For example, Scotus held that morality comes from God's will and choice rather than his intellect or knowledge.
    Accordingly, God should be defined as an omnipotent being whose actions should not and cannot be ultimately rationalized and explained through reason.
    As such, voluntarism is usually contrasted with intellectualism, championed by the scholastic Thomas Aquinas.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntari ... oluntarism
Aquinas approach to Theology is based on Intellectualism:
  • Medieval theological intellectualism is a doctrine of divine action,
    wherein the faculty of intellect precedes, and is superior to, the faculty of the will (voluntas intellectum sequitur).
    As such, Intellectualism is contrasted with voluntarism, which proposes the Will as superior to the intellect, and to the emotions; hence, the stance that "according to intellectualism, choices of the Will result from that which the intellect recognizes as good; the will, itself, is determined.
    For voluntarism, by contrast, it is the Will which identifies which objects are good, and the Will, itself, is indetermined".[8]

    From that philosophical perspective and historical context,
    the Spanish Muslim polymath Averroës (1126–1198) in the 12th century,
    the Italian Christian theologian Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274), and
    the German Christian theologian Meister Eckhart (1260–1327) in the 13th century, are recognised intellectualists.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellect ... lectualism
Am I right to believe that the majority of Christians who believe the Revelations are critical to their belief would disagree with Aquinas' major thesis?
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Harbal
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Harbal »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:59 am I am researching on the Philosophy of Aquinas [Five Ways and his Summas] at present.
You seem to have an insatiable appetite for philosophy; always on the lookout for something new to get wrong.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:59 am Am I right to believe that the majority of Christians who believe the Revelations are critical to their belief would disagree with Aquinas' major thesis?
Does VA mean 'revelations' as in those things revealed in the Bible? Does he mean the book of Revelations and that's why it's capitalized?
If the latter, why that part of the Bible and not genesis, since that's the example VA starts with.

Harbal above says that VA is getting this wrong.

I am not sure the OP here rises to the level of something intelligible which can be evaluated in terms of right or wrong.

He's copied two wikipedia paragraphs and presumably sides with Aquinas and thinks that most Christians do not, it seems, on the issue of whether one should follow the will or the head.
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Harbal
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Harbal »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:38 pm

Harbal above says that VA is getting this wrong.

Not this specifically, but everything in general. I know nothing about Aquinas, but I do know something about VA.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Iwannaplato »

Harbal wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:23 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:38 pm Harbal above says that VA is getting this wrong.
Not this specifically, but everything in general. I know nothing about Aquinas, but I do know something about VA.
OK, that's fine. I just felt your post was too complimentary.
It was almost as if there was enough information in VA's OP to agree or disagree with it or answer his question.
(I was probably triggered into feelings of inadequacy)
puto
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by puto »

Because of the use of integrity or data, trust might be in demand. Who wrote the essay, were you the writer. You should avoid data dumps, can this be true. What does the essay consist of, could you consider. Aquinas the philosopher believes an infinites series of causes, there is no explanation.
Leontiskos
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Leontiskos »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:59 amFor example, Aquinas do not accept that God created the Universe in time in 6-7 days but rather he argued from reason that the Universe has no beginning-in-Time nor end which contradict Genesis' creation of the Universe.
This is incorrect. Aquinas often followed Aristotle, and Aristotle believed that the universe is eternal, but in this matter Aquinas disagreed with Aristotle. See especially <Question 46 of Aquinas' Summa Theologiae>. In the first article he argues that it is not necessary that the universe is eternal and in the second article he argues that the beginning of the universe is believed by faith alone (since it is not a necessary truth and therefore cannot be demonstrated):
  • "By faith alone do we hold, and by no demonstration can it be proved, that the world did not always exist, as was said above of the mystery of the Trinity. The reason of this is that the newness of the world cannot be demonstrated on the part of the world itself..."
  • (Summa Theologiae, Prima Pars, Question 46, Article 2)
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Leontiskos wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:40 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:59 amFor example, Aquinas do not accept that God created the Universe in time in 6-7 days but rather he argued from reason that the Universe has no beginning-in-Time nor end which contradict Genesis' creation of the Universe.
This is incorrect. Aquinas often followed Aristotle, and Aristotle believed that the universe is eternal, but in this matter Aquinas disagreed with Aristotle. See especially <Question 46 of Aquinas' Summa Theologiae>. In the first article he argues that it is not necessary that the universe is eternal and in the second article he argues that the beginning of the universe is believed by faith alone (since it is not a necessary truth and therefore cannot be demonstrated):
  • "By faith alone do we hold, and by no demonstration can it be proved, that the world did not always exist, as was said above of the mystery of the Trinity. The reason of this is that the newness of the world cannot be demonstrated on the part of the world itself..."
  • (Summa Theologiae, Prima Pars, Question 46, Article 2)
VA: Aquinas do not accept that God created the Universe in time in 6-7 days but rather he argued from reason that the Universe has no beginning-in-Time nor end which contradict Genesis' creation of the Universe.
Why incorrect?

When we refer to Aquinas' text it can get very complicated.
But Generally,
Literal and non-literal understanding of the Bible
There are different ways to read and understand the Bible.

Some Christians believe that the Bible stories, including the Genesis account, should be taken literally. This means that the biblical accounts are to be taken as fact, ie that God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh, and that no alternative or scientific theory is considered.

This view is not one that is promoted by the Catholic Church. The Church teaches that the Bible accounts and stories have to be understood within the time that they were written. The authors of the biblical books had limited knowledge of science and the world, so the Genesis account was their way of trying to explain what they believed.

The Church interprets the Genesis account alongside science and reason to try and understand the key message – that God is responsible for the creation of the world. Science may be able to explain how the universe was created, but the Church teaches that religion explains the reason it was created.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z ... revision/2
Note:
As a Doctor of the Church, Thomas Aquinas is considered one of the Catholic Church's greatest theologians and philosophers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas
From the above, we can infer Aquinas did not accept Genesis literally "that God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh,... "
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Age »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:59 am I am researching on the Philosophy of Aquinas [Five Ways and his Summas] at present.
When you say 'researching' do you just essentially mean, 'reading words', only?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:59 am I read while Aquinas obviously believed in the existence and necessity of the Revelation, he nevertheless emphasized the criticalness of Reason [Intellect] in understanding the existence of God.
For example, Aquinas do not accept that God created the Universe in time in 6-7 days but rather he argued from reason that the Universe has no beginning-in-Time nor end which contradict Genesis' creation of the Universe.
LOL there IS absolutely NO contradiction here AT ALL.

If you had 'researched', 'properly', then you would have ALREADY SEEN 'this', AS WELL.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:59 am Aquinas rejected Medieval Theological Voluntarism;
  • Associated with Duns Scotus and William of Ockham[3] (two of the foremost medieval scholastic philosophers), medieval theological voluntarism (not to be confused with meta-ethical theological voluntarism) is generally taken to be the philosophical emphasis on the divine will and human freedom over and above the intellect (voluntas superior intellectu).
    For example, Scotus held that morality comes from God's will and choice rather than his intellect or knowledge.
    Accordingly, God should be defined as an omnipotent being whose actions should not and cannot be ultimately rationalized and explained through reason.
    As such, voluntarism is usually contrasted with intellectualism, championed by the scholastic Thomas Aquinas.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntari ... oluntarism
Aquinas approach to Theology is based on Intellectualism:
  • Medieval theological intellectualism is a doctrine of divine action,
    wherein the faculty of intellect precedes, and is superior to, the faculty of the will (voluntas intellectum sequitur).
    As such, Intellectualism is contrasted with voluntarism, which proposes the Will as superior to the intellect, and to the emotions; hence, the stance that "according to intellectualism, choices of the Will result from that which the intellect recognizes as good; the will, itself, is determined.
    For voluntarism, by contrast, it is the Will which identifies which objects are good, and the Will, itself, is indetermined".[8]

    From that philosophical perspective and historical context,
    the Spanish Muslim polymath Averroës (1126–1198) in the 12th century,
    the Italian Christian theologian Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274), and
    the German Christian theologian Meister Eckhart (1260–1327) in the 13th century, are recognised intellectualists.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellect ... lectualism
Am I right to believe that the majority of Christians who believe the Revelations are critical to their belief would disagree with Aquinas' major thesis?
Iwannaplato
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:44 am
Leontiskos wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:40 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:59 amFor example, Aquinas do not accept that God created the Universe in time in 6-7 days but rather he argued from reason that the Universe has no beginning-in-Time nor end which contradict Genesis' creation of the Universe.
This is incorrect. Aquinas often followed Aristotle, and Aristotle believed that the universe is eternal, but in this matter Aquinas disagreed with Aristotle. See especially <Question 46 of Aquinas' Summa Theologiae>. In the first article he argues that it is not necessary that the universe is eternal and in the second article he argues that the beginning of the universe is believed by faith alone (since it is not a necessary truth and therefore cannot be demonstrated):
  • "By faith alone do we hold, and by no demonstration can it be proved, that the world did not always exist, as was said above of the mystery of the Trinity. The reason of this is that the newness of the world cannot be demonstrated on the part of the world itself..."
  • (Summa Theologiae, Prima Pars, Question 46, Article 2)
VA: Aquinas do not accept that God created the Universe in time in 6-7 days but rather he argued from reason that the Universe has no beginning-in-Time nor end which contradict Genesis' creation of the Universe.
Why incorrect?

When we refer to Aquinas' text it can get very complicated.
But Generally,
Literal and non-literal understanding of the Bible
There are different ways to read and understand the Bible.

Some Christians believe that the Bible stories, including the Genesis account, should be taken literally. This means that the biblical accounts are to be taken as fact, ie that God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh, and that no alternative or scientific theory is considered.

This view is not one that is promoted by the Catholic Church. The Church teaches that the Bible accounts and stories have to be understood within the time that they were written. The authors of the biblical books had limited knowledge of science and the world, so the Genesis account was their way of trying to explain what they believed.

The Church interprets the Genesis account alongside science and reason to try and understand the key message – that God is responsible for the creation of the world. Science may be able to explain how the universe was created, but the Church teaches that religion explains the reason it was created.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z ... revision/2
Note:
As a Doctor of the Church, Thomas Aquinas is considered one of the Catholic Church's greatest theologians and philosophers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas
From the above, we can infer Aquinas did not accept Genesis literally "that God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh,... "
VA is wrong according to his own links.
As a Catholic Thomas believed that God is the "maker of heaven and earth, of all that is visible and invisible." But he thought that this fact can be proved by natural reason; indeed, in showing that it is necessary that any existent being has been created by God, he uses only philosophical arguments, based on his metaphysics of participation.[143] He also maintains that God creates ex nihilo, from nothing, that is He does not make use of any preexisting matter.[144] On the other hand, Aquinas thought that the fact that the world started to exist by God's creation and is not eternal is only known to us by faith; it cannot be proved by natural reason.[145]
IOW it is known to us via faith that the the world is not eternal.
Other things, such as God creating everything we can know through reason.

Aquinus was NOT asserting that the Bible was incorrect or non-literal in Genesis.
Leontiskos
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Leontiskos »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:44 am
Leontiskos wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:40 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:59 amFor example, Aquinas do not accept that God created the Universe in time in 6-7 days but rather he argued from reason that the Universe has no beginning-in-Time nor end which contradict Genesis' creation of the Universe.
This is incorrect. Aquinas often followed Aristotle, and Aristotle believed that the universe is eternal, but in this matter Aquinas disagreed with Aristotle. See especially <Question 46 of Aquinas' Summa Theologiae>. In the first article he argues that it is not necessary that the universe is eternal and in the second article he argues that the beginning of the universe is believed by faith alone (since it is not a necessary truth and therefore cannot be demonstrated):
  • "By faith alone do we hold, and by no demonstration can it be proved, that the world did not always exist, as was said above of the mystery of the Trinity. The reason of this is that the newness of the world cannot be demonstrated on the part of the world itself..."
  • (Summa Theologiae, Prima Pars, Question 46, Article 2)
VA: Aquinas do not accept that God created the Universe in time in 6-7 days but rather he argued from reason that the Universe has no beginning-in-Time nor end which contradict Genesis' creation of the Universe.
Why incorrect?
Because as my post showed, Aquinas did not argue from reason that the universe has no beginning in time. In fact he held that all such arguments fail.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Leontiskos wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:18 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:44 am
Leontiskos wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:40 am

This is incorrect. Aquinas often followed Aristotle, and Aristotle believed that the universe is eternal, but in this matter Aquinas disagreed with Aristotle. See especially <Question 46 of Aquinas' Summa Theologiae>. In the first article he argues that it is not necessary that the universe is eternal and in the second article he argues that the beginning of the universe is believed by faith alone (since it is not a necessary truth and therefore cannot be demonstrated):
  • "By faith alone do we hold, and by no demonstration can it be proved, that the world did not always exist, as was said above of the mystery of the Trinity. The reason of this is that the newness of the world cannot be demonstrated on the part of the world itself..."
  • (Summa Theologiae, Prima Pars, Question 46, Article 2)
VA: Aquinas do not accept that God created the Universe in time in 6-7 days but rather he argued from reason that the Universe has no beginning-in-Time nor end which contradict Genesis' creation of the Universe.
Why incorrect?
Because as my post showed, Aquinas did not argue from reason that the universe has no beginning in time. In fact he held that all such arguments fail.
What about the link I gave above re BBC, it is wrong?

Note the full quote:
I answer that, By faith alone do we hold, and by no demonstration can it be proved, that the world did not always exist, as was said above of the mystery of the Trinity (I:32:1.
The reason of this is that the newness of the world cannot be demonstrated on the part of the world itself.
For the principle of demonstration is the essence of a thing.
Now everything according to its species is abstracted from "here" and "now"; whence it is said that universals are everywhere and always.
Hence it cannot be demonstrated that man, or heaven, or a stone were not always. Likewise neither can it be demonstrated on the part of the efficient cause, which acts by will.
For the will of God cannot be investigated by reason, except as regards those things which God must will of necessity; and what He wills about creatures is not among these, as was said above (I:19:3).
But the divine will can be manifested by revelation, on which faith rests.
Hence that the world began to exist is an object of faith, but not of demonstration or science.
And it is useful to consider this, lest anyone, presuming to demonstrate what is of faith, should bring forward reasons that are not cogent, so as to give occasion to unbelievers to laugh, thinking that on such grounds we believe things that are of faith.
Note this;
For the will of God cannot be investigated by reason, except as regards those things which God must will of necessity; and what He wills about creatures is not among these, as was said above (I:19:3).

Here Aquinas is merely referring to the Will of God in relation to why God cause the World to appear in the first place.

Aquinas is not referring to the processes of how the world emerge since God' will it in 6 days and rest on the seven as literally stated in Genesis.

Can you confirm, Aquinas agreed with the literal interpretation of Genesis of how the World first emerged, i.e. God created the World in 6 days and rest on the 7th?
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Re: Aquinas: Reason Favored over Faith from Revelation

Post by Iwannaplato »

Leontiskos wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:18 pm Because as my post showed, Aquinas did not argue from reason that the universe has no beginning in time. In fact he held that all such arguments fail.
Not only your post, but even the link VA himself gave to Wikipedia shows he is wrong.
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