Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Dontaskme »

iambiguous wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:33 pm the "big questions", isn't it? On the other hand, assuming solipsism is not the correct answer, there are any number of things in the either/or world that appear to be encompassed in as rock solid a reality as there can be. The laws of nature for example.

Speaking of which, none of this "sheer speculation" makes the seeming reality of hurricane Ian go away for the folks down in Florida.

Or, perhaps, if they are lucky enough, it is all just a manifestation of solipsism...the thoughts that you are thinking right now?
Well, life is just doing what it does isn't it. It's hardly pretty most of the time. We cannot know why or how or what nature is, just that it is. We cannot know if this is all created. So not sure what solipsism has got to do with any of this. I do not happen to think there is such a thing as a SELF anyway, except as a thought.

We've only got the 'big questions' when it comes to a creator God creating such events as the decimation caused by natures hurricanes.
We do not have answers as to why a creator would create such a mess in the first place. Chaos seems to be unavoidable where sentient feeling life forms are concerned, because they are obviously very fragile and vulnerable to natures erratic forces.


There are no answers as to how or why a God would create such a mess to begin with, we have no idea what's going on really, or why. It's all so unknowable, especially how it is even possible to exist at all, and to be perfectly honest, that thought is just totally unfathomable.

So no thing to blame, there's just a great big mess, and the cleaning up of the mess...that seems to be on some kind of repeat process.
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:11 pm So, what, given your own best thinking, was God [your God, their God, any God] thinking when He created planet Earth to make these ghastly "acts of God" inevitable.
Think about it...here, you have thought about the idea that the planet earth has been 'Created'...by a 'Deity' perhaps?

But you cannot know for absolute certainty that the planet earth has been created, can you?
Yes. I KNOW.

I ALSO KNOW that what I KNOW here is IRREFUTABLE, which MEANS that there is NOT a one of 'you', human beings, that could REFUTE what I KNOW in regards to whether the earth was created or not. And, this is BECAUSE ALL of 'you' could AGREE WITH and ACCEPT what I KNOW.

So, the planet earth was Created, AND by 'what', EXACTLY, can be EXPLAINED, VERY SIMPLY, and be UNDERSTOOD, VERY EASILY.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am how could you ever know for sure?
Through AGREEMENT and ACCEPTANCE with and by EVERY one.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am And yet you seem to think pretty easily that is was created and you've even made up a name for the creator, which you have thought of as God. But don't you see, you simply cannot know what it is you THINK you know, because all you are dealing with are your 'thoughts' about this.
Yes one can NOT KNOW what 'it' is, for sure, while they are ONLY 'thinking'. But, once some 'thing' is KNOWN, for sure, then, OBVIOUSLY, they can KNOW.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am I've personally come to the conclusion that there is no way of knowing anything about reality, except for what my 'thoughts' put there.
But what the so-called "your" 'thoughts' could be ABSOLUTELY False, Wrong, or Incorrect, or PARTLY False, Wrong, or Incorrect.

As the 'thoughts' expressed under the label "dontaskme" regularly PROVES to be ABSOLUTELY True, Right, AND Correct.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am So, heck, we cannot even know how we are able to 'think' for that matter, we cannot even know what 'thought' is.
Speak for "yourself" here "dontaskme". See, some of 'us' DO KNOW, and CAN PROVE what 'we' KNOW to be ABSOLUTELY and IRREFUTABLY True.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am It seems to me that life is just an endless cycle of creation and destruction, or an endless series of seamless cause and effect happenings.
Well this is what IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING and OCCURRING. But just remember there is ONLY One 'Thing' ALONE, which is in an eternal evolutionary CHANGE, through a cause and effect, or an action-reaction, process, which is CREATING what 'you' OBSERVE. And, the creation and destruction 'you' "SEE" are just of the 'things', which 'you' are SEPARATING, through illusion, which is just of 'your' OWN MAKING UP IMAGINATION.

There are NO 'things' (with an 's') being created and being destroyed. There is only One 'Thing' ALONE, which is just CHANGING in SHAPE and FORM ALWAYS in the HERE and NOW.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am It does rather seem there is no how or why or purpose or reason for any of this life happening, simply because if there were any how or why or reason or purpose to life, that would still be unknowable to us, because those 'thoughts' would still only be put there by our own mental capacity to think about this, again using 'thoughts' we know nothing about.
ONCE AGAIN 'your' so-called "logic" here does NOT LOGICALLY FOLLOW. Although some of what 'you' wrote and say here is ACTUALLY IRREFUTABLY True, AGAIN, 'you' TWIST and DISTORT 'It', and thus MIX 'It' UP with OTHER 'thoughts', within that body, when then just leads to CONFUSING and MISTAKEN ideas and views.

And, if 'you' EVER REALLY do come to SEEK HELP in LEARNING HOW to better words 'your' sentences, so that they are IRREFUTABLY True, Right, and Correct, then REMEMBER I am ALWAYS WILLING TO HELP 'you'.

By the way, what 'you' SAY and CLAIM here, through those 'thoughts', which BELIEVE there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of KNOWING, can ACTUALLY BE KNOWN, and for your information AGAIN, are ALREADY KNOWN, by some of 'us'.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am We simply cannot KNOW anything really.
So, do 'you' KNOW 'this' or just 'THINK' 'this' is true?

If it is the former, then 'this' is just ANOTHER SELF-CONTRADICTORY CLAIM of 'yours'. However,

If it is the latter, then, ONCE AGAIN, 'you' could just be Wrong and/or Incorrect.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am So there is no point in trying to fathom anything out when it comes to a Creator of this unknowable reality.
And, ONCE AGAIN, "dontaskme" comes here to 'try to' TELL 'us' what thee ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth IS, EXACTLY, and if ABSOLUTELY ANY one DISAGREES with what "dontaskme" CLAIMS, then that 'one' does NOT KNOW what they are talking about, correct "dontaskme"?

Oh, and by the way, what 'you' CLAIM there is, "NO point in trying to fathom out", has ALREADY BEEN 'fathomed' AND ALREADY BEEN 'worked out' and FULLY UNDERSTOOD, ALREADY ALSO.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am All you are doing here, and seems we're all doing here, is divulging in our own imagination ABOUT what we can only think about, using thoughts we know nothing about.
YES, this is EXACTLY what 'you' and "others" ARE DOING here.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am It's no good blaming any thing for what happens in life, because we cannot even know why or how life is happening at all, only that it is.
BUT 'we' ALREADY DO KNOW. As I KEEP INFORMING 'you' "dontaskme".
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am God is a 'thought'

But does a 'thought' think? Does the 'thought' create a 'thinker'? where is the 'thinker' without the 'thought'? and where is the 'thought' exactly?
ALL of these HAVE ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED, and, by the way, in A WAY that is IRREFUTABLE by 'you', human beings.

Also, and by the way, BECAUSE 'you' THINK and BELIEVE these answers can NEVER be found 'you' are, literally, NOT OPEN to HEARING and SEEING what these IRREFUTABLE answers are EXACTLY.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am In reality, nothing can be known about reality, and it seems to be an untenable position to be in, to be this not-knowing knowing.
CONTRADICTION, at its best.
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Age »

Walker wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:50 am
Age wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:36 am WHY, especially in the country where this ANOTHER storm is going to cross a coastline the people there seem to ABSOLUTELY OVER DRAMATIZE 'things', or ONLY become concerned or worried about 'things' when those 'things' happen in that one miserable little country, upon MANY countries?
Because, if a hurricane was to do $70 billion dollars worth of damage in a sticks and straw country, rather than a brick house country like the USofA, it would probably wipe out the whole country and then some.
So, it is about money, right?
Walker wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:50 am Wash all those sticks and all that straw out to sea. However, in the USofA technology gives enough time to allow for the age-old mitigation method of ... Run for the hills!

If only folks had listened and given the government all their money to fight climate change, these poor folks in miserable little countries wouldn't be washed out to sea when the weather changes.
Seems like 'you' DRIFTED OFF here "walker".

I was just asking WHY the people in 'that country' seem to OVER DRAMATIZE 'things' and to ONLY BECOME CONCERNED about 'things' when 'things' happen in 'that country'. This was ONLY what was being sought for CLARITY.

And, 'you' seem to have PROVIDED this CLARITY by proclaiming that it is because of 'money', or more correctly because of 'the love of money', or in other words because of GREED and SELFISHNESS, themselves, correct?
Age
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:54 pm
Age wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:39 am
Supposedly 'positive' in regards to 'what', EXACTLY?
In regards to natures harmful ways.
So, to "dontaskme's' 'thinking', the POSITIVE attribute of 'being aware' is in regards to ONLY 'natures HARMFUL ways', correct?

If yes, then in WHAT WAYS, EXACTLY, is Nature, Itself, supposedly, 'harmful'?

And to who and/or what, is Nature, Itself, supposedly, 'harmful' to, EXACTLY?
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:54 pm We as aware beings can be aware of the harmful effects of nature.
But 'you', aware beings, can NEVER KNOW, can 'you'?
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:54 pm It's self-evidently harmful, as witnessed with our own eyes.
But 'you' do NOT KNOW this, correct?
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:54 pm It's a positive to be able to know harm exists.
But 'you' just got through above TELLING 'us' that we can NOT KNOW absolutely ANY 'thing', so HOW can we NOW KNOW 'harm' exists?
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:54 pm Why, then we can do something positive to prevent being in natures harmful path.
Just see for yourself...here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMQ-nTTv4ik


Extreme Debris Filled Winds, Placida, Florida - Hurricane Ian - 9/28/2022
But HOW could 'you' EVER KNOW that nature can be 'harmful' if 'you' can NEVER KNOW ANY 'thing'?
Age
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Age »

bobmax wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:24 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:55 pm
bobmax wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:01 pm

Nothing magical and nothing to do with a religion.

Simply the suspicion that it should necessarily arise in those who seek the Truth.

That is to ask "Who am I?"
I really have nothing to do with how this world is?
This conversation is entitled 'Hurricane Ian and God'. You seem to imply that somebody , "you" ,is responsible for Hurricane Ian. To presume that some man's irresponsible behaviour caused Hurricane Ian is magical thinking.

If, on the other hand, you intend to point out that Hurricane Ian is caused by man- made climate change then you might say so explicitly.
The responsibility of an event lies with who is the unconditional origin of this event.

There is no unconditional origin in the world.
So no body is really responsible for what happens.

However, the world is the fruit of an unconditional origin.
So, in one sentence 'you' SAY and CLAIM that; "There is NO unconditional origin in the world", and in just two sentences later 'you' SAY and CLAIM that; "the world is (ACTUALLY) the fruit of an unconditional origin".

Are you ABLE to EXPLAIN this OBVIOUS INCONSISTENCY and CONTRADICTION here?
bobmax wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:24 pm This origin is responsible for everything that happens.
But who or what CAUSED 'this origin'?

Your Honest answer here will help in CLEARING UP and CLARIFYING things here.
bobmax wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:24 pm Being origin it is not only responsible, it is also all that it is.
It is Being.

Beyond your being there, as an entity in the world, you are Being.
You are the unconditional origin.
You are the one in charge.
What does the 'you' word here refer to EXACTLY?
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Age »

iambiguous wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:33 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:11 pm So, what, given your own best thinking, was God [your God, their God, any God] thinking when He created planet Earth to make these ghastly "acts of God" inevitable.
Think about it...here, you have thought about the idea that the planet earth has been 'Created'...by a 'Deity' perhaps?

But you cannot know for absolute certainty that the planet earth has been created, can you? how could you ever know for sure?
Nope, I suspect I don't even come remotely close to the correct answer here. Given, that, like you, I am but an "infinitesimally tiny and insignificant speck of existence in the staggering vastness of all there is". It's just that, existentially and rooted in dasein, a tiny fraction of the world's population become interested in philosophy. And the truly "big questions" are among the most fascinating inquiries, right?
iambiguous wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:33 pm And yet you seem to think pretty easily that is was created and you've even made up a name for the creator, which you have thought of as God. But don't you see, you simply cannot know what it is you THINK you know, because all you are dealing with are your 'thoughts' about this.
Nope. I addressed the OP to those who have thoughts that revolve around such things as Genesis...the first Book of the Bible for many here. Their God created an Earth where such things as hurricanes have plagued humankind for centuries now.
Are these the same hurricanes that if they did NOT exist, in the beginning, then humankind would NOT have come to evolve into creation either?
iambiguous wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:33 pm I've personally come to the conclusion that there is no way of knowing anything about reality, except for what my 'thoughts' put there.
Solipsism? Maybe. But that's just another of the "big questions", isn't it? On the other hand, assuming solipsism is not the correct answer, there are any number of things in the either/or world that appear to be encompassed in as rock solid a reality as there can be. The laws of nature for example.

Speaking of which, none of this "sheer speculation" makes the seeming reality of hurricane Ian go away for the folks down in Florida.[/quote]

And, WHERE, EXACTLY, would you like that hurricane to 'go away to', or towards?

Maybe some OTHER country where the people there you do NOT care about as much as those miserable 'infinitesimally tiny and insignificant' ones' who live in "florida", correct?
iambiguous wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:33 pm Or, perhaps, if they are lucky enough, it is all just a manifestation of solipsism...the thoughts that you are thinking right now?
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Age »

iambiguous wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:39 pm
Age wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:16 am
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:11 pm Hurricane Ian is about to smash into the West coast of Florida. Perhaps as the deadliest of all hurricanes...a category 5.

God knows [literally if there is one] how many people [men, women and children] will die or suffer terrible injuries. How many will lose everything to the storm. How many will find their lives all but in tatters.
Who cares?

God knows [literally] how many people [men, women and children] will die/d or suffer/ed terrible injuries, when people [men and women] from let us say the country where a bit stronger wind, than normally or usually occurs, and which is labeled and called 'ian' here, will just come over that country, and the people of that country INVADE other countries.

How many of those people who get INVADED will lose everything to those OTHER people? How many will find their lives all but in taters just because some people think it is perfectly all right to INVADE other countries and peoples.

If NO one was expecting a storm with relatively stronger than 'normally' experienced wind gusts to come over the land that they live upon, then these people should WAKE UP to "themselves" and REALIZE and UNDERSTAND that storms are a completely NECESSARY part of life and living.

People INVADING OTHER people's country is NOT, and I will repeat, is NOT, a NECESSARY part of life, NOR living.

Some 'things' should be EXPECTED, others NOT so. But, some adult human beings, in the days when this is being written, have it MIXED UP and BACK TO FRONT here.

If we just remove the completely 'emotive' words like SMASH INTO and perhaps as the DEADLIEST of ALL 'hurricanes', and just expressed, sensibly and reasonably, that a storm, with wind gusts higher than 'normally' happens, will cross a coast line, then we can LOOK AT 'this' from a MORE CLEARER and Truer perspective. That is, storms of varying wind velocity and/or varying wind gusts are just a VERY normal and natural part of Life. And, in fact, if it were NOT for storms like the one above, then 'you', human beings, would NOT have even come into being nor into even Existence, to begin with.
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:11 pm So, what, given your own best thinking, was God [your God, their God, any God] thinking when He created planet Earth to make these ghastly "acts of God" inevitable.

BUT a storm is ONLY so-called 'ghastly' to those who perceive them as being 'ghastly'. And, 'trying to' 'argue' for your OWN position or BELIEF with OBVIOUSLY VERY 'emotive' words, in order to just garnish a 'reaction', does NOT mean that what you are 'trying to' fight or argue for is sound, valid, nor even logical.
1. God is OBVIOUSLY NOT a male gendered 'thing'.

2. God did NOT create to make so-called 'ghastly' 'acts of God'.
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:11 pm Ironically, I wish that I could believe in God if only to have someone to hold responsible for all of these terrible "natural disasters".
So-called 'natural disasters' are ONLY called 'disasters' because 'you', human beings, LOSE what 'you' CLAIM are YOUR OWN, and what are essentially 'material things', which, when one LOOKS Honestly, came from the earth anyway, which is the way it is because of VERY NATURAL occurances, like the storm/s talked about above.

There is NO 'disaster' in the scheme of things.

There is, however, 'a disaster' to those who WHOLE lives revolve around just a minute FEW 'material things'.
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:11 pm At least there would be a reason for all of the horrific pain and suffering.
There is NO REAL 'pain and suffering', except, OF COURSE, within children who have to ENDURE the ABUSE 'you', adult human beings, commit and perpetrate, on earth, and on children "themselves".

'you', adult human beings, are creating 'the world' that ALL HAVE TO live within. NO one else. Although 'you' would LOVE to LOOK FOR, LOOK AT, and BLAME some 'thing' ELSE, other than the ones who CREATED the MESS, and that is; "your" OWN 'selves'.
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:11 pm And I'd sure be willing to settle for God's "mysterious ways" rather than in believing that these things happen in the way in which "shit happens"...in an essentially meaningless and purposeless world encompassed in the "brute facticity" of an utterly indifferent universe.
God's so-called 'mysterious ways' VANISH, completely, when accepting and taking RESPONSIBILITY, with Honesty, OPENNESS, and with a serious Want to CHANGE, for the better.
Note to others:

I STOPPED reading the POSTS of AGE long ago.

A "condition" I SUSPECT.

On the other HAND, if he/she does POST something that YOU BELIEVE might interest ME, by ALL means, pass IT along.
There is NOTHING to be worried or concerned about here as ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I write will be of ANY INTEREST AT ALL to "iambiguous". This is BECAUSE "iambiguous" is NOT OPEN to absolutely ANY thing OTHER than what it ALREADY BELIEVES is true.

What can be CLEARLY SEEN here is that "iambiguous" is completely and utterly CLOSED.

"iambiguous" is a PRIME EXAMPLE of HOW and WHY human beings could NOT learn ANY thing MORE nor ANEW.

Thread is also ANOTHER example of just how much these people, back in the days when this was being written, would ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE things are true and begin threads with those BELIEFS making CLAIMS, as if they KNEW what they were talking about, but when questioned and challenge would completely and utterly FALTER and FAIL. As "iambiguous" just PROVED IRREFUTABLY True and Correct, ONCE AGAIN, and MORE.
Last edited by Age on Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Age
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:39 pm
iambiguous wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:33 pm the "big questions", isn't it? On the other hand, assuming solipsism is not the correct answer, there are any number of things in the either/or world that appear to be encompassed in as rock solid a reality as there can be. The laws of nature for example.

Speaking of which, none of this "sheer speculation" makes the seeming reality of hurricane Ian go away for the folks down in Florida.

Or, perhaps, if they are lucky enough, it is all just a manifestation of solipsism...the thoughts that you are thinking right now?
Well, life is just doing what it does isn't it. It's hardly pretty most of the time. We cannot know why or how or what nature is, just that it is. We cannot know if this is all created. So not sure what solipsism has got to do with any of this. I do not happen to think there is such a thing as a SELF anyway, except as a thought.

We've only got the 'big questions' when it comes to a creator God creating such events as the decimation caused by natures hurricanes.
We do not have answers as to why a creator would create such a mess in the first place. Chaos seems to be unavoidable where sentient feeling life forms are concerned, because they are obviously very fragile and vulnerable to natures erratic forces.
Nature's hurricanes also CAUSE and CREATE NEW 'things'.

But if one only wants to SEE 'decimation', then that is ONLY what they will LOOK AT.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:39 pm There are no answers as to how or why a God would create such a mess to begin with, we have no idea what's going on really, or why.
AGAIN, speak for "yourself", "dontaskme". As I SAY, 'we' ALREADY KNOW what IS going on, as well as 'we' ALREADY KNOW HOW and WHY ALL of this is GOING ON.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:39 pm It's all so unknowable, especially how it is even possible to exist at all, and to be perfectly honest, that thought is just totally unfathomable.
LOL What 'you' find UNKNOWABLE, and even UNFATHOMABLE, 'we' have ALREADY come to KNOW, and IRREFUTABLY I will add.

But then again, 'you', human beings, were NEVER expected to COME-TO-KNOW 'things' at the EXACT SAME TIME, nor PACE.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:39 pm So no thing to blame, there's just a great big mess, and the cleaning up of the mess...that seems to be on some kind of repeat process.
The ONLY True 'mess', which NEEDS CLEANING UP, is the one that 'you', adult human beings, HAVE MADE and were STILL MAKING, in the days when this was being written.
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Dontaskme »

Age wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:49 pm What 'you' find UNKNOWABLE, and even UNFATHOMABLE, 'we' have ALREADY come to KNOW, and IRREFUTABLY I will add.
I've been through all this with you before Age. I have spoken about why I state we cannot know anything.


We don't know there is a knower, we 'create' the knower to make sense of the world. Knowing creates the knower. But what is knowing?

Can this knowing be known and by what? What is knowing? ..yes, it does appear to be the case that we are this knowing, but we cannot know this knowing as we can know a 'thing'. We cannot point to a 'thing' and inform ourself that this 'thing' is the ''knower''


We assume there is a knower because there is knowing. The same way we assume a seer because there is seeing. But what is seeing?

Can the seer see itself? What does the seer look like? if you think about that, you cannot find the seer, or the knower anywhere that can be localised and isolated from actual seeing and knowing, it cannot be separated out as an independant thing in and of itself.

If you have seen the seer Age...then do tell us what the seer looks like?
If you know the knower Age... then do tell us what the knower looks like?

What does this ''you'' or ''we'' or ''I'' look like that is assumed to be the knower and the seer?

In every experience, the observer is the known, but what does the observer look like, does the observer have an image? and can that image be known, and what is it that knows the image of the observer that is known? ..to answer these questions implies there is known an observer that can observe the observing observer..so what is the image of the observer, and can that image be seen as a 'thing' known?


These are the ideas that I continually put forward for everyone here to ponder, these ideas are in my opinion fundamentally unknowable and unfathomable.
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Iwannaplato »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:24 am
Age wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:49 pm What 'you' find UNKNOWABLE, and even UNFATHOMABLE, 'we' have ALREADY come to KNOW, and IRREFUTABLY I will add.
I've been through all this with you before Age. I have spoken about why I state we cannot know anything.


We don't know there is a knower, we 'create' the knower to make sense of the world. Knowing creates the knower. But what is knowing?

Can this knowing be known and by what? What is knowing? ..yes, it does appear to be the case that we are this knowing, but we cannot know this knowing as we can know a 'thing'. We cannot point to a 'thing' and inform ourself that this 'thing' is the ''knower''


We assume there is a knower because there is knowing. The same way we assume a seer because there is seeing. But what is seeing?

Can the seer see itself? What does the seer look like? if you think about that, you cannot find the seer, or the knower anywhere that can be localised and isolated from actual seeing and knowing, it cannot be separated out as an independant thing in and of itself.

If you have seen the seer Age...then do tell us what the seer looks like?
If you know the knower Age... then do tell us what the knower looks like?

What does this ''you'' or ''we'' or ''I'' look like that is assumed to be the knower and the seer?

In every experience, the observer is the known, but what does the observer look like, does the observer have an image? and can that image be known, and what is it that knows the image of the observer that is known? ..to answer these questions implies there is known an observer that can observe the observing observer..so what is the image of the observer, and can that image be seen as a 'thing' known?


These are the ideas that I continually put forward for everyone here to ponder, these ideas are in my opinion fundamentally unknowable and unfathomable.
OH, but DAM, you just made a deductive argument to demonstrate the truths you hold dear.
So, you believe it's true that deduction works. Some other truths you hold dear....
You have to see something to know it is real.
You can't know yourself.
There are observers perception and the known - that's a specific and by this point cliche model of perception.


All these truths you believe in.

I know, now you can say you don't believe in them.

But amazingly you will utter the same truths and imply and base your deductions and observations on them again and again.

We are not talking to an amorphous ball of impressions floating through nowhere. You're a woman, what was it, in your 50s, somewhere in the US, repeating and repeating a philosophy with very clear beliefs and truths you believe in.

When you tell us you don't exist and you don't think anything can be known....
it ends up being a kind of brainwashing trick. The precise kinds of mental confusion tactics used by hypnotists and mind cleaners when they want to get thoughts into someone's brain.
Deny the real. Contradict yourself.
Give them oxymorons.
It won't hurt anyone here because they are just words on a screen and presented as spiritual truths.
But it's the same pattern and you are saying these things to people. I know you don't mean it as disrespect, but it is that anyway.
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Dontaskme »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:38 am
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:24 am
Age wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:49 pm What 'you' find UNKNOWABLE, and even UNFATHOMABLE, 'we' have ALREADY come to KNOW, and IRREFUTABLY I will add.
I've been through all this with you before Age. I have spoken about why I state we cannot know anything.


We don't know there is a knower, we 'create' the knower to make sense of the world. Knowing creates the knower. But what is knowing?

Can this knowing be known and by what? What is knowing? ..yes, it does appear to be the case that we are this knowing, but we cannot know this knowing as we can know a 'thing'. We cannot point to a 'thing' and inform ourself that this 'thing' is the ''knower''


We assume there is a knower because there is knowing. The same way we assume a seer because there is seeing. But what is seeing?

Can the seer see itself? What does the seer look like? if you think about that, you cannot find the seer, or the knower anywhere that can be localised and isolated from actual seeing and knowing, it cannot be separated out as an independant thing in and of itself.

If you have seen the seer Age...then do tell us what the seer looks like?
If you know the knower Age... then do tell us what the knower looks like?

What does this ''you'' or ''we'' or ''I'' look like that is assumed to be the knower and the seer?

In every experience, the observer is the known, but what does the observer look like, does the observer have an image? and can that image be known, and what is it that knows the image of the observer that is known? ..to answer these questions implies there is known an observer that can observe the observing observer..so what is the image of the observer, and can that image be seen as a 'thing' known?


These are the ideas that I continually put forward for everyone here to ponder, these ideas are in my opinion fundamentally unknowable and unfathomable.
OH, but DAM, you just made a deductive argument to demonstrate the truths you hold dear.
So, you believe it's true that deduction works. Some other truths you hold dear....
You have to see something to know it is real.
You can't know yourself.
There are observers perception and the known - that's a specific and by this point cliche model of perception.


All these truths you believe in.

I know, now you can say you don't believe in them.

But amazingly you will utter the same truths and imply and base your deductions and observations on them again and again.

We are not talking to an amorphous ball of impressions floating through nowhere. You're a woman, what was it, in your 50s, somewhere in the US, repeating and repeating a philosophy with very clear beliefs and truths you believe in.

When you tell us you don't exist and you don't think anything can be known....
it ends up being a kind of brainwashing trick. The precise kinds of mental confusion tactics used by hypnotists and mind cleaners when they want to get thoughts into someone's brain.
Deny the real. Contradict yourself.
Give them oxymorons.
It won't hurt anyone here because they are just words on a screen and presented as spiritual truths.
But it's the same pattern and you are saying these things to people. I know you don't mean it as disrespect, but it is that anyway.
But we are only talking about knowledge here. The knowledge that things exist.

There is here, appearing as words, just a philosophy about the nature of existence arising as words, that's all. Words are concepts known as a knowledge.

There's no direct knowing outside the contact between knower and known, which is the source of knowing. Knower and known are concepts known...but these 'ideas' are never seen as actual physical objects in and of themselves.

Knower and Known are one inseparable knowing. So how can one know itself without splitting itself into two things, ie: knower and known. There is no knower separate from the known, and that which is known knows nothing.

Knowledge can only point to the illusory nature of reality.

Knowledge is an idea, it's a mental concept. It is a mental interpretation of an aspect of the real world. If ''mental'' doesn't exist, knowledge cannot exist. Books do not contain knowledge, they contain paper and ink.

A knower cannot know itself just as light cannot illuminate itself. Everything known is only the knowing that cannot be known, it's illusory appearing real.

This is neither true or false, it just is.

Every thing/concept known is a mental construction. So what does a mind look like? what is the image of the mind?

The mind can only refer to itself as a mirror image, that will look like a concept, which cannot know anything.
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Dontaskme »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:38 am OH, but DAM, you just made a deductive argument to demonstrate the truths you hold dear.
No thing knows what is truth or what is lie. About about that? - if a thing does know...then what is that thing?

All words are unwritten, and read by no thing. How about that? - if a thing does write and read ...then what is that thing?

Reality is a mysterious magic trick, that the observer has absolutely no access to...believe it or not.
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Dontaskme »

So coming back on topic ....the question asked is...

So, what, given your own best thinking, was God [your God, their God, any God] thinking when He created planet Earth to make these ghastly "acts of God" inevitable.

God was probably thinking, omg what a fine mess I've created here. Hmm, I am able to wreak havoc upon my creation. That's the only thing God could think of while observing what is self-evidently happening. It's not like God would think anything else during a hurricane, I mean God could be distracted away from the actual hurricane happening to some more peaceful place like where no huuricane is forming, and not give two hoots about what the hurricane that is happening is doing.
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Belinda »

bobmax wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:24 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:55 pm
bobmax wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:01 pm

Nothing magical and nothing to do with a religion.

Simply the suspicion that it should necessarily arise in those who seek the Truth.

That is to ask "Who am I?"
I really have nothing to do with how this world is?
This conversation is entitled 'Hurricane Ian and God'. You seem to imply that somebody , "you" ,is responsible for Hurricane Ian. To presume that some man's irresponsible behaviour caused Hurricane Ian is magical thinking.

If, on the other hand, you intend to point out that Hurricane Ian is caused by man- made climate change then you might say so explicitly.
The responsibility of an event lies with who is the unconditional origin of this event.

There is no unconditional origin in the world.
So no body is really responsible for what happens.

However, the world is the fruit of an unconditional origin.
This origin is responsible for everything that happens.

Being origin it is not only responsible, it is also all that it is.
It is Being.

Beyond your being there, as an entity in the world, you are Being.
You are the unconditional origin.
You are the one in charge.
I agree until your last paragraph which does not seem to follow from the preceding. I am not an origin : God , or nature, is the only origin, and to attribute origination to me or you or any person or persons, is idolatry
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by bobmax »

Belinda wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:08 am
bobmax wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:24 pm The responsibility of an event lies with who is the unconditional origin of this event.

There is no unconditional origin in the world.
So no body is really responsible for what happens.

However, the world is the fruit of an unconditional origin.
This origin is responsible for everything that happens.

Being origin it is not only responsible, it is also all that it is.
It is Being.

Beyond your being there, as an entity in the world, you are Being.
You are the unconditional origin.
You are the one in charge.
I agree until your last paragraph which does not seem to follow from the preceding. I am not an origin : God , or nature, is the only origin, and to attribute origination to me or you or any person or persons, is idolatry
Why is the last paragraph inconsistent with the previous ones?
And what does idolatry have to do with it?

You are responsible not as a person, but as a Being.
Who are you if not the Being itself?
Do you think you are something other than Being?

As a person you are the only begotten daughter thrown into the world.
But you and God are One.

All of this has to do with the compassion we are talking about in the other topic.

So no idolatry, but the suffering of returning home.
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