Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Age
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Age »

iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:41 pm
bobmax wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:39 pm
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:48 pm Oh, now I see. You want to turn this into a technical, philosophical inquiry.

Okay, my thinking here goes like this:

Logically, epistemologically and, well, actually, I don't have any power whatsoever to stop this hurricane from devastating the lives of thousands of men, women and children. The children in particular. Therefore, technically and otherwise, I don't believe that, logically, epistemologically or, well, actually, I should be held responsible for any of the dire consequences that will unfold down there.
You don't have the power now.

But are you sure it's not you, just you, the origin of all things?

Doesn't what happens, everything that happens, ultimately depend on what you decided?

Isn't this world your choice?
Of course I am the origin of all things! And that has to include Florida and Ian!!

God is off the hook for sure then!!!

Besides, it's us dumb humans that continue to live in places where floods and droughts and hurricanes and tornadoes and volcanic eruptions and earthquakes and tsunamis and all the other "acts of God" can kill us, can wreck our lives.
LOL 'you' speak as though 'you' WOULD HAVE lived FOREVER if 'an act of God' did NOT kill 'you'. Which is Truly HUMOROUS to say the least.

As for 'wrecking 'your' lives, 'you', adult human beings, do this FAR MORE than ANY natural occurrence as described above COULD EVER ACTUALLY DO.
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:41 pm Let's all move to Antarctica. There we can dress for the cold and thrive.

As for the occasional "extinction event" that wipes out significant chunks of all living things, well, the Second Coming is likely to occur before the next one. Only those "left behind" anyway will have to deal with that.

Right, I.C.?
Walker
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Walker »

Age wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:36 am WHY, especially in the country where this ANOTHER storm is going to cross a coastline the people there seem to ABSOLUTELY OVER DRAMATIZE 'things', or ONLY become concerned or worried about 'things' when those 'things' happen in that one miserable little country, upon MANY countries?
Because, if a hurricane was to do $70 billion dollars worth of damage in a sticks and straw country, rather than a brick house country like the USofA, it would probably wipe out the whole country and then some. Wash all those sticks and all that straw out to sea. However, in the USofA technology gives enough time to allow for the age-old mitigation method of ... Run for the hills!

If only folks had listened and given the government all their money to fight climate change, these poor folks in miserable little countries wouldn't be washed out to sea when the weather changes.
Age
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Age »

iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:16 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:14 pm
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:39 pm

Note to any Floridians here in the path of Ian:

Read this. Then get back to us after the storm bears down on thousands of other hapless souls. Well, once the power is restored. And you're still among the living.
Oh, pardon me. I missed the part where I sent that to people in danger. I thought I sent it to people in a philosophy forum. I must have had a black out or psychotic break.
Now, ain't that typical of the "serious philosopher"? Actual tens of thousands of flesh and blood human beings in the path of devastation. A thread created to connect the dots between that and those who worship and adore a God said to be both loving, just and merciful and omniscient/omnipotent...and we're sent here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/

Also, I already created a thread to deal with the "problem of evil" more along a theological/philosophical pathway: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=35199
Just so you are BOTH FULLY AWARE, the so-called "problem of evil" in absolutely NO WAY AT ALL argues against there being A God.
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:16 pm This thread is aimed more specifically along this path...
So, what, given your own best thinking, was God [your God, their God, any God] thinking when He created planet Earth to make these ghastly "acts of God" inevitable.
I don't think that He [if He existed] would send us to that link myself.

But, sure, maybe He would.

And then, of course, make this all about me:
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:14 pmLet's treat your OP with the kind of skewed attack you aimed at me.

Note to any Floridians in the path of Ian: read the OP where someone is posing as already experiencing his empathy for your not yet occurred injuries and deaths, and then drifting into his narcissism at the end. The real issue is his wish that he had someone to blame for your deaths and injuries and how horrible it is for him not to have a deity to be enraged at on your behalf.

Get off your moral high horse you faux moral nihilist with your faux empathy you can't help but contradict in the same post.
Now, the question [mine] becomes this: what actually prompted this scathing declamation in which the whole issue here now basically does become about me?

How, apparently, he or she more definitively grasps my own motivations and intentions here than I think that I do myself. Though, again, admittedly, I'm no less "fractured and fragmented" there myself. Here's as close as I've ever come to grappling with it:

"He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest." John Fowles from The Magus

Maybe he or she will address this point more, uh, substantively and maybe he or she won't.

How about this...

A new thread in which we examine our respective philosophies at the existential intersection of identity, value judgments, conflicting goods and political economy. Given a particular set of circumstances that most here will be familiar with. That way as the discussion unfolds, Iwannaplato can note specific instances whereby his or her accusations against me become pertinent.
bobmax
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by bobmax »

Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:26 am
bobmax wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:54 pm Have you ever had the suspicion that you, really you, are responsible?
That would be magical thinking which does not serve the cause of any decent religion.
Nothing magical and nothing to do with a religion.

Simply the suspicion that it should necessarily arise in those who seek the Truth.

That is to ask "Who am I?"
I really have nothing to do with how this world is?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Dontaskme »

Age wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:39 am
Supposedly 'positive' in regards to 'what', EXACTLY?
In regards to natures harmful ways.

We as aware beings can be aware of the harmful effects of nature. It's self-evidently harmful, as witnessed with our own eyes. It's a positive to be able to know harm exists. Why, then we can do something positive to prevent being in natures harmful path.
Just see for yourself...here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMQ-nTTv4ik


Extreme Debris Filled Winds, Placida, Florida - Hurricane Ian - 9/28/2022
Iwannaplato
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Iwannaplato »

Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:26 am
bobmax wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:54 pm Have you ever had the suspicion that you, really you, are responsible?
That would be magical thinking which does not serve the cause of any decent religion.
The prohibition against magical thinking would eliminate most of the major religions in the world. Which religions do you consider decent?

I would suggest giving bobomax a little time to explore/expand.

(And just to be clear I am not blaming Iambiguous or anyone else here for the hurricane, I just think bb may be referring to something I recognize)
Belinda
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Belinda »

bobmax wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:01 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:26 am
bobmax wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:54 pm Have you ever had the suspicion that you, really you, are responsible?
That would be magical thinking which does not serve the cause of any decent religion.
Nothing magical and nothing to do with a religion.

Simply the suspicion that it should necessarily arise in those who seek the Truth.

That is to ask "Who am I?"
I really have nothing to do with how this world is?
This conversation is entitled 'Hurricane Ian and God'. You seem to imply that somebody , "you" ,is responsible for Hurricane Ian. To presume that some man's irresponsible behaviour caused Hurricane Ian is magical thinking.

If, on the other hand, you intend to point out that Hurricane Ian is caused by man- made climate change then you might say so explicitly.
promethean75
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by promethean75 »

"Think about it. Make every Christian church liable for Acts of God. This is the wet dream of The Left."

Speaking of matters concerning brothers in need, member when that millionaire evangelist Joel whatever didn't let those storm refugees into his enormous warehouse sized church building for shelter?

Unfuckingbelievable, Walker. That guy's got twenty million dollars in his heavenly bank account and he won't let a few people into his church during a hurricane or flood of whatever it wuz I can't remember.
Impenitent
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Impenitent »

god? why blame god for something that can obviously be controlled by government scientists and global warming experts...

-Imp
Walker
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by Walker »

promethean75 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:15 pm "Think about it. Make every Christian church liable for Acts of God. This is the wet dream of The Left."

Speaking of matters concerning brothers in need, member when that millionaire evangelist Joel whatever didn't let those storm refugees into his enormous warehouse sized church building for shelter?

Unfuckingbelievable, Walker. That guy's got twenty million dollars in his heavenly bank account and he won't let a few people into his church during a hurricane or flood of whatever it wuz I can't remember.
What was his reason?
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iambiguous
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by iambiguous »

iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:16 pmNow, ain't that typical of the "serious philosopher"? Actual tens of thousands of flesh and blood human beings in the path of devastation. A thread created to connect the dots between that and those who worship and adore a God said to be both loving, just and merciful and omniscient/omnipotent...and we're sent here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/

Also, I already created a thread to deal with the "problem of evil" more along a theological/philosophical pathway: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=35199

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:40 pmMore narcissism. I should have in the back of my mind Iamb's opus of threads when I comment in one.
Right, that thread exists entirely [and only] in order to sustain my narcissism. :lol:
This thread is aimed more specifically along this path...
So, what, given your own best thinking, was God [your God, their God, any God] thinking when He created planet Earth to make these ghastly "acts of God" inevitable.
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:40 pm Right, and it couldn't possibly be useful for people to see how their positions might be supported and countered by philosophers. That couldn't possibly be a resource in a thread in a philosophy forum in a thread on this topic. It couldn't possibly lead to a more nuanced discussion where people are better able to defend their positions but also encounter stronger counterpostions.
Fine. If that's how you wish to construe it, so be it. I stand by my own distinction, however. And others can make up their own minds regarding which distinction makes the most sense to them...and to those on Ian's path of destruction and devastation.

My own personal opinion here is that very, very few men and women in the path of the hurricane would likely be interested in perusing a link such as yours. That's for down the road. Instead, the discussions here and now are far more likely to revolve around factors like God and religion. Using both to either rationalize the horror or to make that crucial break from both once and for all.

And that is where I clearly aimed the OP. Or so I thought I was. But what do I know of my own motivation and intention next to you.
And then, of course, make this all about me:
Let's treat your OP with the kind of skewed attack you aimed at me.

Note to any Floridians in the path of Ian: read the OP where someone is posing as already experiencing his empathy for your not yet occurred injuries and deaths, and then drifting into his narcissism at the end. The real issue is his wish that he had someone to blame for your deaths and injuries and how horrible it is for him not to have a deity to be enraged at on your behalf.

Get off your moral high horse you faux moral nihilist with your faux empathy you can't help but contradict in the same post.
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:40 pmOh, I'm sorry. I should have done it implicitly about you like you did about me. I think you just don't like being treated how you treat others.
My post in regard to your post however was [again] to note how my OP was not soliciting a link of that sort at all but reactions more in sync with this:
So, what, given your own best thinking, was God [your God, their God, any God] thinking when He created planet Earth to make these ghastly "acts of God" inevitable.
Note to any Floridians here in the path of Ian:

Read this. Then get back to us after the storm bears down on thousands of other hapless souls. Well, once the power is restored. And you're still among the living.
It wasn't aimed at you personally but to the link. It could have been anyone here who posted it.
Now, the question [mine] becomes this: what actually prompted this scathing declamation in which the whole issue here now basically does become about me?

How, apparently, he or she more definitively grasps my own motivations and intentions here than I think that I do myself. Though, again, admittedly, I'm no less "fractured and fragmented" there myself. Here's as close as I've ever come to grappling with it:

"He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest." John Fowles from The Magus

Maybe he or she will address this point more, uh, substantively and maybe he or she won't.

How about this...

A new thread in which we examine our respective philosophies at the existential intersection of identity, value judgments, conflicting goods and political economy. Given a particular set of circumstances that most here will be familiar with. That way as the discussion unfolds, Iwannaplato can note specific instances whereby his or her accusations against me become pertinent.
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:40 pm If you, that is you, the person, misrepresent what I did, I will react to that misrepresentation. I don't think the problem of evil or Ian or the existence or goodness of God is about you. I do think your actions are about you.
My action on this thread was to post the OP. My focus was an attempt to solicit the personal reactions of those who are religious. To explore how they reconcile this...

...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages...

...with particular Gods said to be both loving, just and merciful and omniscient/omnipotent.

Either more theologically/philosophically on my theodicy thread or in responding directly in regard to a particular "act of God" like Ian.

Also, to note this crucial point:
Ironically, I wish that I could believe in God if only to have someone to hold responsible for all of these terrible "natural disasters". At least there would be a reason for all of the horrific pain and suffering. And I'd sure be willing to settle for God's "mysterious ways" rather than in believing that these things happen in the way in which "shit happens"...in an essentially meaningless and purposeless world encompassed in the "brute facticity" of an utterly indifferent universe.
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:40 pmAnd I notice you do not respond to the main points in my thread.

1) Anyone looking at that link would know very quickly that it is not something that is remotely intended as an solution to the problem of evil.
2) It would take malicious intent or idiocy to imply, which you the person did, that I thought this should be some kind of balm for the people in danger. So, YOU started with the personal attack for no reason.
All you had to do, asshole, if you thought that it shifted the focus, was to say: hey, that's shifting the focus. That doesn't fit my topic.
My apologies. Admittedly, I am a "natural born polemicist". But we clearly have very, very different perspectives on all this. I can only suggest that if you do harbor all of this contempt for me here, you cease and desist from reading my posts. See how that works in purging this particular asshole from your life.

Though, I must say, this all sounds like a "personal problem" to me. I clearly rub you the wrong way. Now, I have my own suspicions regarding what this is really all about. And, if you'd like, we can explore that on another thread.
Last edited by iambiguous on Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bobmax
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by bobmax »

Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:55 pm
bobmax wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:01 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:26 am That would be magical thinking which does not serve the cause of any decent religion.
Nothing magical and nothing to do with a religion.

Simply the suspicion that it should necessarily arise in those who seek the Truth.

That is to ask "Who am I?"
I really have nothing to do with how this world is?
This conversation is entitled 'Hurricane Ian and God'. You seem to imply that somebody , "you" ,is responsible for Hurricane Ian. To presume that some man's irresponsible behaviour caused Hurricane Ian is magical thinking.

If, on the other hand, you intend to point out that Hurricane Ian is caused by man- made climate change then you might say so explicitly.
The responsibility of an event lies with who is the unconditional origin of this event.

There is no unconditional origin in the world.
So no body is really responsible for what happens.

However, the world is the fruit of an unconditional origin.
This origin is responsible for everything that happens.

Being origin it is not only responsible, it is also all that it is.
It is Being.

Beyond your being there, as an entity in the world, you are Being.
You are the unconditional origin.
You are the one in charge.
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iambiguous
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by iambiguous »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:11 pm So, what, given your own best thinking, was God [your God, their God, any God] thinking when He created planet Earth to make these ghastly "acts of God" inevitable.
Think about it...here, you have thought about the idea that the planet earth has been 'Created'...by a 'Deity' perhaps?

But you cannot know for absolute certainty that the planet earth has been created, can you? how could you ever know for sure?
Nope, I suspect I don't even come remotely close to the correct answer here. Given, that, like you, I am but an "infinitesimally tiny and insignificant speck of existence in the staggering vastness of all there is". It's just that, existentially and rooted in dasein, a tiny fraction of the world's population become interested in philosophy. And the truly "big questions" are among the most fascinating inquiries, right?
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 amAnd yet you seem to think pretty easily that is was created and you've even made up a name for the creator, which you have thought of as God. But don't you see, you simply cannot know what it is you THINK you know, because all you are dealing with are your 'thoughts' about this.
Nope. I addressed the OP to those who have thoughts that revolve around such things as Genesis...the first Book of the Bible for many here. Their God created an Earth where such things as hurricanes have plagued humankind for centuries now.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 amI've personally come to the conclusion that there is no way of knowing anything about reality, except for what my 'thoughts' put there.
Solipsism? Maybe. But that's just another of the "big questions", isn't it? On the other hand, assuming solipsism is not the correct answer, there are any number of things in the either/or world that appear to be encompassed in as rock solid a reality as there can be. The laws of nature for example.

Speaking of which, none of this "sheer speculation" makes the seeming reality of hurricane Ian go away for the folks down in Florida.

Or, perhaps, if they are lucky enough, it is all just a manifestation of solipsism...the thoughts that you are thinking right now?
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iambiguous
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by iambiguous »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:04 am
bobmax wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:54 pm Have you ever had the suspicion that you, really you, are responsible?
:lol: :lol:

Yes everytime he farts a fairy dies.

See what I reduce the fulminating fanatic objectivists among us down to?!

8)
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iambiguous
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Re: Hurricane Ian and God...no, seriously

Post by iambiguous »

Age wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:16 am
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:11 pm Hurricane Ian is about to smash into the West coast of Florida. Perhaps as the deadliest of all hurricanes...a category 5.

God knows [literally if there is one] how many people [men, women and children] will die or suffer terrible injuries. How many will lose everything to the storm. How many will find their lives all but in tatters.
Who cares?

God knows [literally] how many people [men, women and children] will die/d or suffer/ed terrible injuries, when people [men and women] from let us say the country where a bit stronger wind, than normally or usually occurs, and which is labeled and called 'ian' here, will just come over that country, and the people of that country INVADE other countries.

How many of those people who get INVADED will lose everything to those OTHER people? How many will find their lives all but in taters just because some people think it is perfectly all right to INVADE other countries and peoples.

If NO one was expecting a storm with relatively stronger than 'normally' experienced wind gusts to come over the land that they live upon, then these people should WAKE UP to "themselves" and REALIZE and UNDERSTAND that storms are a completely NECESSARY part of life and living.

People INVADING OTHER people's country is NOT, and I will repeat, is NOT, a NECESSARY part of life, NOR living.

Some 'things' should be EXPECTED, others NOT so. But, some adult human beings, in the days when this is being written, have it MIXED UP and BACK TO FRONT here.

If we just remove the completely 'emotive' words like SMASH INTO and perhaps as the DEADLIEST of ALL 'hurricanes', and just expressed, sensibly and reasonably, that a storm, with wind gusts higher than 'normally' happens, will cross a coast line, then we can LOOK AT 'this' from a MORE CLEARER and Truer perspective. That is, storms of varying wind velocity and/or varying wind gusts are just a VERY normal and natural part of Life. And, in fact, if it were NOT for storms like the one above, then 'you', human beings, would NOT have even come into being nor into even Existence, to begin with.
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:11 pm So, what, given your own best thinking, was God [your God, their God, any God] thinking when He created planet Earth to make these ghastly "acts of God" inevitable.

BUT a storm is ONLY so-called 'ghastly' to those who perceive them as being 'ghastly'. And, 'trying to' 'argue' for your OWN position or BELIEF with OBVIOUSLY VERY 'emotive' words, in order to just garnish a 'reaction', does NOT mean that what you are 'trying to' fight or argue for is sound, valid, nor even logical.
1. God is OBVIOUSLY NOT a male gendered 'thing'.

2. God did NOT create to make so-called 'ghastly' 'acts of God'.
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:11 pm Ironically, I wish that I could believe in God if only to have someone to hold responsible for all of these terrible "natural disasters".
So-called 'natural disasters' are ONLY called 'disasters' because 'you', human beings, LOSE what 'you' CLAIM are YOUR OWN, and what are essentially 'material things', which, when one LOOKS Honestly, came from the earth anyway, which is the way it is because of VERY NATURAL occurances, like the storm/s talked about above.

There is NO 'disaster' in the scheme of things.

There is, however, 'a disaster' to those who WHOLE lives revolve around just a minute FEW 'material things'.
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:11 pm At least there would be a reason for all of the horrific pain and suffering.
There is NO REAL 'pain and suffering', except, OF COURSE, within children who have to ENDURE the ABUSE 'you', adult human beings, commit and perpetrate, on earth, and on children "themselves".

'you', adult human beings, are creating 'the world' that ALL HAVE TO live within. NO one else. Although 'you' would LOVE to LOOK FOR, LOOK AT, and BLAME some 'thing' ELSE, other than the ones who CREATED the MESS, and that is; "your" OWN 'selves'.
iambiguous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:11 pm And I'd sure be willing to settle for God's "mysterious ways" rather than in believing that these things happen in the way in which "shit happens"...in an essentially meaningless and purposeless world encompassed in the "brute facticity" of an utterly indifferent universe.
God's so-called 'mysterious ways' VANISH, completely, when accepting and taking RESPONSIBILITY, with Honesty, OPENNESS, and with a serious Want to CHANGE, for the better.
Note to others:

I STOPPED reading the POSTS of AGE long ago.

A "condition" I SUSPECT.

On the other HAND, if he/she does POST something that YOU BELIEVE might interest ME, by ALL means, pass IT along.
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