what is the religion of reason?

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DPMartin
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what is the religion of reason?

Post by DPMartin »

what is the religion of reason? Just how powerful can self-justification be? How is it that one can believe in reason as their god, worshiped as the most admirable thing? Truly they see it as the provider of all they need to know.
Iwannaplato
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by Iwannaplato »

DPMartin wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:18 pm what is the religion of reason? Just how powerful can self-justification be? How is it that one can believe in reason as their god, worshiped as the most admirable thing? Truly they see it as the provider of all they need to know.
I'm not quite sure what you are asking/saying here. Aer there people who have consider reason God? Are you against this? Or is it more like some people say other people have a religion of reason, but you think those people are confused about people who value reason?

Are there people who see reason of the provider of all they need to know?

I'd need a definition of reason to decide if that position makes any sense. I think it is likely confused, but it would depend.
DPMartin
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by DPMartin »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:41 pm
DPMartin wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:18 pm what is the religion of reason? Just how powerful can self-justification be? How is it that one can believe in reason as their god, worshiped as the most admirable thing? Truly they see it as the provider of all they need to know.
I'm not quite sure what you are asking/saying here. Aer there people who have consider reason God? Are you against this? Or is it more like some people say other people have a religion of reason, but you think those people are confused about people who value reason?

Are there people who see reason of the provider of all they need to know?

I'd need a definition of reason to decide if that position makes any sense. I think it is likely confused, but it would depend.
You have over 1200 postings on this site and have been here for 13 years and you don’t understand what I’ve posted. Really? Oh, FYI, I do believe google posts definitions for you.
Iwannaplato
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by Iwannaplato »

DPMartin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:40 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:41 pm
DPMartin wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:18 pm what is the religion of reason? Just how powerful can self-justification be? How is it that one can believe in reason as their god, worshiped as the most admirable thing? Truly they see it as the provider of all they need to know.
I'm not quite sure what you are asking/saying here. Aer there people who have consider reason God? Are you against this? Or is it more like some people say other people have a religion of reason, but you think those people are confused about people who value reason?

Are there people who see reason of the provider of all they need to know?

I'd need a definition of reason to decide if that position makes any sense. I think it is likely confused, but it would depend.
You have over 1200 postings on this site and have been here for 13 years and you don’t understand what I’ve posted. Really? Oh, FYI, I do believe google posts definitions for you.
Yes, I didn't understand what you posted. I took a few stabs. Were any close? Yes, I know how to find definitions of reason online and otherwise. But I find that different people, here and elsewhere use the word 'reason' in different ways. Some mean just formal, logical, verbal processes. Some include intuition (or I would say, notice that intuition plays a role) others do not. For example. Some think primarily of deduction. Some are not so fond of abduction. Some empiricists really onlike induction. Some people haven't really thought it out and it means something like 'good thinking' and this tend to mean assertions they agree with or short little bursts of assertions in support of something. So, yes, I asked. And over the 13 years I have experienced people reasoning in a wild variety of ways and often it seems to me what they consider reasoning isn't that. Other times I think they fail to respect or admit to the use of processes they do in fact use. I don't know you or your positions, so I asked for clarification.

Yes, in my 13 years here, asking for clarification has not always led somewhere. Other times it has. Not much should surprise me, even snarkiness over asking for clarification. But still, it does on occasion.
bobmax
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by bobmax »

DPMartin wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:18 pm what is the religion of reason? Just how powerful can self-justification be? How is it that one can believe in reason as their god, worshiped as the most admirable thing? Truly they see it as the provider of all they need to know.
Yes, the mind can become a god.

But I would distinguish between reason and logical thinking.
Because reason uses logical thinking but is not limited to it.
It is logical thinking that can become a god.

And it becomes so when reason is lost in it.
That is, when it loses sight of the fact that logical thinking is only a tool.
A tool to be used at best, but which does not provide any truth, other than that supposed by the same reason.

If reason flattens itself on logical thought, it loses awareness of the limit beyond which logical thought cannot go.
And so the logic becomes self-sufficient without the awareness of what underlies it.

Here is that the mind believes itself to be god!
A devastating hallucination.
The Nazis, for example, were excellent logicians ...
DPMartin
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by DPMartin »

bobmax wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:00 pm
DPMartin wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:18 pm what is the religion of reason? Just how powerful can self-justification be? How is it that one can believe in reason as their god, worshiped as the most admirable thing? Truly they see it as the provider of all they need to know.
Yes, the mind can become a god.

But I would distinguish between reason and logical thinking.
Because reason uses logical thinking but is not limited to it.
It is logical thinking that can become a god.

And it becomes so when reason is lost in it.
That is, when it loses sight of the fact that logical thinking is only a tool.
A tool to be used at best, but which does not provide any truth, other than that supposed by the same reason.

If reason flattens itself on logical thought, it loses awareness of the limit beyond which logical thought cannot go.
And so the logic becomes self-sufficient without the awareness of what underlies it.

Here is that the mind believes itself to be god!
A devastating hallucination.
The Nazis, for example, were excellent logicians ...
well logic wasn't mentioned, though I can see what you’re getting at, I see it on philosophy web sites everywhere, but the subject is reason as a god and or religion. Many are closet worshipers of reason idolizing it.

granted logic is garbage in garbage out, reason is considered superior to that by most.
bobmax
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by bobmax »

DPMartin wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:16 pm well logic wasn't mentioned, though I can see what you’re getting at, I see it on philosophy web sites everywhere, but the subject is reason as a god and or religion. Many are closet worshipers of reason idolizing it.

granted logic is garbage in garbage out, reason is considered superior to that by most.
I mentioned logic to open the subject.
Because in reality it is precisely determined thought as such that is believed to be absolute truth.

In a nutshell, it is the Identity Principle that is considered True regardless.
And the True is God himself.

Therefore, although one may not even be aware of it, it is A = A the God who is interpreted to be the foundation of reason.

Without, however, considering that the Principle of identity is a negation.
That is, A is not B, C, D, everything except A.

While God... is the negation of the negation
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Sculptor
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by Sculptor »

Reason is the antithesis of religion.

Religion is the taking of something to be true because you wish that thing to be so.

Reason is the taking of something to be true because of some sort of rational and logical process based on evidence.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

An oxymoron if ever I saw one :lol:
Impenitent
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by Impenitent »

what is the religion of reason?

ask a Vulcan

humans are emotional and act on emotion far more than reason

-Imp
Age
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by Age »

DPMartin wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:18 pm what is the religion of reason?
I do NOT know.

I did NOT know there even was a so-called 'religion of reason'.
DPMartin wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:18 pm Just how powerful can self-justification be?
Close enough to ABSOLUTELY POWERFUL.

When one BELIEVES some 'thing' is true, or false, for example, then they will ONLY LOOK FOR 'that', which backs up and supports THAT BELIEF, and WHEN they so-call "FIND" absolutely ANY thing, which they think or BELIEVE backs up and supports THAT BELIEF, then they think or BELIEVE that they have now just TRULY 'JUSTIFIED', the BELIEF, and thus ultimately JUSTIFIED "them" 'self', as well, as what they were BELIEVING was ALREADY true anyway.

Because of WHERE BELIEFS LAY, and WHAT BELIEFS ARE EXACTLY, to think or BELIEVE that one has TRULY 'JUSTIFIED' the BELIEFS, then what is ASSUMED is that that 'self' is ALSO TRULY 'JUSTIFIED'.
DPMartin wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:18 pm How is it that one can believe in reason as their god, worshiped as the most admirable thing? Truly they see it as the provider of all they need to know.
Absolutely ANY old enough human being can BELIEVE absolutely ANY thing is true, or false, including BELIEVING that 'reason' is 'their' God. However, once BELIEF has set in 'reason' is; REALLY 'out the door', as some might say.
Age
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by Age »

DPMartin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:40 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:41 pm
DPMartin wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:18 pm what is the religion of reason? Just how powerful can self-justification be? How is it that one can believe in reason as their god, worshiped as the most admirable thing? Truly they see it as the provider of all they need to know.
I'm not quite sure what you are asking/saying here. Aer there people who have consider reason God? Are you against this? Or is it more like some people say other people have a religion of reason, but you think those people are confused about people who value reason?

Are there people who see reason of the provider of all they need to know?

I'd need a definition of reason to decide if that position makes any sense. I think it is likely confused, but it would depend.
You have over 1200 postings on this site and have been here for 13 years and you don’t understand what I’ve posted. Really? Oh, FYI, I do believe google posts definitions for you.
From my perspective, NOT that it really matters, but I am STILL NOWHERE near fully understanding your post here, either. For example, I do NOT even KNOW what the words 'the religion of reason' means nor is it referring to. EXACTLY what was just said and POINTED OUT to you by "iwannaplato".

Also, being here, in this forum, for a hundred years, or having millions of posts in NO WAY means that that one would then understand your post here MORE nor BETTER. Your so-called 'reasoning' here does NOT logically follow AT ALL. Well from my perspective anyway.

And, if you do NOT even want to define the actual words that you USE, say, and write here, then do NOT expect ANY one to understand you BETTER.
Age
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by Age »

bobmax wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:00 pm
DPMartin wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:18 pm what is the religion of reason? Just how powerful can self-justification be? How is it that one can believe in reason as their god, worshiped as the most admirable thing? Truly they see it as the provider of all they need to know.
Yes, the mind can become a god.
What is 'the mind', and, what is 'a god', EXACTLY?
bobmax wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:00 pm But I would distinguish between reason and logical thinking.
Because reason uses logical thinking but is not limited to it.
It is logical thinking that can become a god.

And it becomes so when reason is lost in it.
That is, when it loses sight of the fact that logical thinking is only a tool.
A tool to be used at best, but which does not provide any truth, other than that supposed by the same reason.

If reason flattens itself on logical thought, it loses awareness of the limit beyond which logical thought cannot go.
And so the logic becomes self-sufficient without the awareness of what underlies it.

Here is that the mind believes itself to be god!
A devastating hallucination.
The Nazis, for example, were excellent logicians ...
AND, 'you', "bobmax", NOT so good a 'logician', correct?
Age
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by Age »

DPMartin wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:16 pm
bobmax wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:00 pm
DPMartin wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:18 pm what is the religion of reason? Just how powerful can self-justification be? How is it that one can believe in reason as their god, worshiped as the most admirable thing? Truly they see it as the provider of all they need to know.
Yes, the mind can become a god.

But I would distinguish between reason and logical thinking.
Because reason uses logical thinking but is not limited to it.
It is logical thinking that can become a god.

And it becomes so when reason is lost in it.
That is, when it loses sight of the fact that logical thinking is only a tool.
A tool to be used at best, but which does not provide any truth, other than that supposed by the same reason.

If reason flattens itself on logical thought, it loses awareness of the limit beyond which logical thought cannot go.
And so the logic becomes self-sufficient without the awareness of what underlies it.

Here is that the mind believes itself to be god!
A devastating hallucination.
The Nazis, for example, were excellent logicians ...
well logic wasn't mentioned, though I can see what you’re getting at, I see it on philosophy web sites everywhere, but the subject is reason as a god and or religion. Many are closet worshipers of reason idolizing it.
Who are SOME of these MANY?

And, if they are so-called 'closet worshipers of reason', how do 'you' KNOW them?

Have they confided in and with 'you'?

Or, through 'reason' 'you' just KNOW who they ARE?
DPMartin wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:16 pm granted logic is garbage in garbage out, reason is considered superior to that by most.
So, to 'you', "dpmartin", 'most', (whatever that is in relation to), consider 'reason' to be SUPERIOR to 'logic', correct?

If yes, then SUPERIOR in relation to 'what', EXACTLY?
Belinda
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Re: what is the religion of reason?

Post by Belinda »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:57 pm
DPMartin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:40 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:41 pm
I'm not quite sure what you are asking/saying here. Aer there people who have consider reason God? Are you against this? Or is it more like some people say other people have a religion of reason, but you think those people are confused about people who value reason?

Are there people who see reason of the provider of all they need to know?

I'd need a definition of reason to decide if that position makes any sense. I think it is likely confused, but it would depend.
You have over 1200 postings on this site and have been here for 13 years and you don’t understand what I’ve posted. Really? Oh, FYI, I do believe google posts definitions for you.
Yes, I didn't understand what you posted. I took a few stabs. Were any close? Yes, I know how to find definitions of reason online and otherwise. But I find that different people, here and elsewhere use the word 'reason' in different ways. Some mean just formal, logical, verbal processes. Some include intuition (or I would say, notice that intuition plays a role) others do not. For example. Some think primarily of deduction. Some are not so fond of abduction. Some empiricists really onlike induction. Some people haven't really thought it out and it means something like 'good thinking' and this tend to mean assertions they agree with or short little bursts of assertions in support of something. So, yes, I asked. And over the 13 years I have experienced people reasoning in a wild variety of ways and often it seems to me what they consider reasoning isn't that. Other times I think they fail to respect or admit to the use of processes they do in fact use. I don't know you or your positions, so I asked for clarification.

Yes, in my 13 years here, asking for clarification has not always led somewhere. Other times it has. Not much should surprise me, even snarkiness over asking for clarification. But still, it does on occasion.
The idea of reason has a history. Socrates and Confucius were salient figures who advanced the idea of reason, and in modern Europe Descartes made a great leap forward that enable scientific enlightenment. I have not studied the history of reason as such however these few examples are common knowledge.
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