Spiritual value of monarchy

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Iwannaplato
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Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Iwannaplato »

Maia wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:15 pm The fact that monarchs are different and set apart, by genetics if you like, is exactly why they have the untouchable aura around them.
So what? You seem reluctant or incapable of responding to what I wrote. You come again with what you see as positive about it. But you simply will not respond to what I am saying is a negative spiritual value. I am on topic, your responses to me are more off-topic, in your own thread.
I give up. Nicely played, I guess. Just ignore and ignore and then the other person will go away. But perhaps it would be better than to not start a thread on a topic and then only pretend to respond to people who respond and not impolitely on topic, while actually not addressing the points they make. You could simply have stated your opinions in the Queen is Dead thread, rather than starting a topic you are only interested in your own opinion about.
Maia
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Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Maia »

Age wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:41 am
Maia wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:13 pm
Age wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:49 pm

And, when one has power, over "others", then this makes "others" aspire to also having that power.
And when that individual is a monarch with centuries of tradition, it is far less likely that others will assume power.
OF COURSE. BUT, previously, you wrote 'aspiring to', and NOT 'assume'. Which is the ONLY thing that I have been challenging you over.

See, to me, when one has or holds 'power', then this actually encourages "others" to 'aspire to' that same kind of power, and does NOT 'prevent' "others" to 'aspire to' that kind of power, at all.
I think there's a difference between aspiring to something in a serious sort of way, rather than just dreaming about it, which I think is more how you are using it. Though I agree we are just arguing over semantics now.
Maia
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Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Maia »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:35 am
Maia wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:15 pm The fact that monarchs are different and set apart, by genetics if you like, is exactly why they have the untouchable aura around them.
So what? You seem reluctant or incapable of responding to what I wrote. You come again with what you see as positive about it. But you simply will not respond to what I am saying is a negative spiritual value. I am on topic, your responses to me are more off-topic, in your own thread.
I give up. Nicely played, I guess. Just ignore and ignore and then the other person will go away. But perhaps it would be better than to not start a thread on a topic and then only pretend to respond to people who respond and not impolitely on topic, while actually not addressing the points they make. You could simply have stated your opinions in the Queen is Dead thread, rather than starting a topic you are only interested in your own opinion about.
I'm sorry but I thought I was making a valid point.
promethean75
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Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by promethean75 »

"The fact that monarchs are different and set apart, by genetics if you like, is exactly why they have the untouchable aura around them."

the only thing emanating from and surrounding king Charles is the smell of moth balls and bengay. 
Iwannaplato
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Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Iwannaplato »

promethean75 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:25 am "The fact that monarchs are different and set apart, by genetics if you like, is exactly why they have the untouchable aura around them."

the only thing emanating from and surrounding king Charles is the smell of moth balls and bengay. 
I think the Royalty should be working class. They get to wear the same outfits for functions. But they have dayjobs otherwise. They could be rewarded with some enormous pension. If they leave their dayjobs, they have abdicated and new Royalty is found.

Then we have the spirit in a better line. Nothing genetically or classwise special about these people. They are still symbols for the nation, but symbols that actually match most people. Once in a while they get a ritual role, which implies that anyone could be in there being all gussied up and special for that time.

So, anyone is a breathe away.

Instead of BenGay and mothballs, Old Spice and a cig aroma follows the great leader through the awed crowd.
Maia
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Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Maia »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:07 pm
promethean75 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:25 am "The fact that monarchs are different and set apart, by genetics if you like, is exactly why they have the untouchable aura around them."

the only thing emanating from and surrounding king Charles is the smell of moth balls and bengay. 
I think the Royalty should be working class. They get to wear the same outfits for functions. But they have dayjobs otherwise. They could be rewarded with some enormous pension. If they leave their dayjobs, they have abdicated and new Royalty is found.

Then we have the spirit in a better line. Nothing genetically or classwise special about these people. They are still symbols for the nation, but symbols that actually match most people. Once in a while they get a ritual role, which implies that anyone could be in there being all gussied up and special for that time.

So, anyone is a breathe away.

Instead of BenGay and mothballs, Old Spice and a cig aroma follows the great leader through the awed crowd.
So you would advocate choosing a head of state at random, by lot?

It's a system that was used in Ancient Greece, after all, so it's not without its defenders.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Iwannaplato »

or the nation coúld try to just
grow up,
perhaps via some town meeting style gatherings
where people really get at what their need/obsession/fantisy related to royalty is.
How they might find healthier substitutes.
What is really going on psychologically.
What are they missing in their lives that might need economic and other societal changes,
so that instead of being distracted and soothed by
fantasy figures
they actually engage in life as it is,
perhaps finding their own greatness.

The Royal Family is the first docusoap.
Maia
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Location: UK

Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Maia »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:11 pm or the nation coúld try to just
grow up,
perhaps via some town meeting style gatherings
where people really get at what their need/obsession/fantisy related to royalty is.
How they might find healthier substitutes.
What is really going on psychologically.
What are they missing in their lives that might need economic and other societal changes,
so that instead of being distracted and soothed by
fantasy figures
they actually engage in life as it is,
perhaps finding their own greatness.

The Royal Family is the first docusoap.
I would suggest that it's those who wish to tear it down that have psychological problems.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6654
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Iwannaplato »

or a lottery. You win the lottery, you are part of the royal family.
There have been instances of elective monarchies. Sweden did this once.
I think an actual application process would be interesting. Like a job interview process.
Love to see the CVs. The nation could choose interview questions.
You could also do that type of team problem solving interview scenario.
Perhaps they have to navigate an obstacle course.
Fun to throw diplomatic questions at candidates.
You could also put them in all sorts of unpleasant social situations and see if they can hold a poker face.
Maia
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Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Maia »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:22 pm or a lottery. You win the lottery, you are part of the royal family.
There have been instances of elective monarchies. Sweden did this once.
I think an actual application process would be interesting. Like a job interview process.
Love to see the CVs. The nation could choose interview questions.
You could also do that type of team problem solving interview scenario.
Perhaps they have to navigate an obstacle course.
Fun to throw diplomatic questions at candidates.
You could also put them in all sorts of unpleasant social situations and see if they can hold a poker face.
If only there were some people trained from birth to do those things.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Iwannaplato »

because we have people who are not especially spiritual as it is, it would be interesting to take over control of the process. Why follow people somehow genetically related to someone long ago whose army raped and pillaged some portion of Europe.

if spirituality was the main criteria, then that criterion could be the main part of the selection process.

I'd prefer, of course, some kind of pagan spirituality testing and background. I can't imagine anything more boring that something coming out of the Anglican church which is so many degrees removed from its original shaman (Jesus) and his religion (Judaism) that it can only inspire mediocre muddled spiritualities.

But hey, that's me.

If spirituality, a spiritual aura, around the royals, they should be more than a genetic clan with good poker faces. Get some truly charismatic people who care about the planet and its occupants via some passionate animism.
Maia
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Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Maia »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:32 pm because we have people who are not especially spiritual as it is, it would be interesting to take over control of the process. Why follow people somehow genetically related to someone long ago whose army raped and pillaged some portion of Europe.

if spirituality was the main criteria, then that criterion could be the main part of the selection process.

I'd prefer, of course, some kind of pagan spirituality testing and background. I can't imagine anything more boring that something coming out of the Anglican church which is so many degrees removed from its original shaman (Jesus) and his religion (Judaism) that it can only inspire mediocre muddled spiritualities.

But hey, that's me.

If spirituality, a spiritual aura, around the royals, they should be more than a genetic clan with good poker faces. Get some truly charismatic people who care about the planet and its occupants via some passionate animism.
As a Pagan myself, I fully concur with that. In fact, how about a matriarchal theacracy? See my thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=35604
Iwannaplato
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Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Iwannaplato »

It's funny that in the OP the idea of seeing the royals as spiritual figures is supported by pointing at Egypt where they were seen as gods. While at the same time repeatedly pointing out that they do not have supreme power.
Egyptian pharaohs were more powerful than the kings of other regions because their office combined earthly kingship with connections to the gods and the immortal plane of existence. As pharaoh, these rulers not only controlled and owned all the land and resources of the kingdom, but they were also the religious heads of state, and thought to be the intermediaries between mortals and the gods. This was different than other kingdoms because they usually maintained more secular authority, and oversaw a priesthood separate from their individual personage.
That's what you get when you really smush together the spiritual and royalty. Incredible power.

So, what's the spirituality for a democratic nation or republic?

Well, there is no unity about that, at all. There is no national spirituality. You have the various monotheists: Anglicans (those that actually are religious), Catholics, Muslims, Jews...Then you have the really versatile Hinduism, now clashing with the less versatile Muslims right now in Leicester. After this you have all sorts of smaller groups. In history you go back to various paganisms, which were more or less indigenous but also came in incursions of AngloSaxons, Romans, Vikings. There's this undergird of paganisms. You have neo-spiritual heuristics, like stoicism (the stiff upper lipe, the cliche British stuffing down of emotions,w hich is a kind of implicit spirituality, even if it has not the slightest bit of spirit in it and can be quite secular.

So, what is the royal family that is a symbol for this mish mosh?

I don't think there can be one. And should a royal family be painted as this or decides itself to take on that role, it is misrepresenting its constituants. Perhaps once one could talk in generaliteis about the population of nationstates. But not anymore. For good and for ill.
Age
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Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Age »

Maia wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:52 am
Age wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:41 am
Maia wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:13 pm

And when that individual is a monarch with centuries of tradition, it is far less likely that others will assume power.
OF COURSE. BUT, previously, you wrote 'aspiring to', and NOT 'assume'. Which is the ONLY thing that I have been challenging you over.

See, to me, when one has or holds 'power', then this actually encourages "others" to 'aspire to' that same kind of power, and does NOT 'prevent' "others" to 'aspire to' that kind of power, at all.
I think there's a difference between aspiring to something in a serious sort of way, rather than just dreaming about it, which I think is more how you are using it. Though I agree we are just arguing over semantics now.
It will be DISCOVERED that EVERY 'argument' is ALWAYS just over 'semantics'.
Maia
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Re: Spiritual value of monarchy

Post by Maia »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:58 pm It's funny that in the OP the idea of seeing the royals as spiritual figures is supported by pointing at Egypt where they were seen as gods. While at the same time repeatedly pointing out that they do not have supreme power.
Egyptian pharaohs were more powerful than the kings of other regions because their office combined earthly kingship with connections to the gods and the immortal plane of existence. As pharaoh, these rulers not only controlled and owned all the land and resources of the kingdom, but they were also the religious heads of state, and thought to be the intermediaries between mortals and the gods. This was different than other kingdoms because they usually maintained more secular authority, and oversaw a priesthood separate from their individual personage.
That's what you get when you really smush together the spiritual and royalty. Incredible power.

So, what's the spirituality for a democratic nation or republic?

Well, there is no unity about that, at all. There is no national spirituality. You have the various monotheists: Anglicans (those that actually are religious), Catholics, Muslims, Jews...Then you have the really versatile Hinduism, now clashing with the less versatile Muslims right now in Leicester. After this you have all sorts of smaller groups. In history you go back to various paganisms, which were more or less indigenous but also came in incursions of AngloSaxons, Romans, Vikings. There's this undergird of paganisms. You have neo-spiritual heuristics, like stoicism (the stiff upper lipe, the cliche British stuffing down of emotions,w hich is a kind of implicit spirituality, even if it has not the slightest bit of spirit in it and can be quite secular.

So, what is the royal family that is a symbol for this mish mosh?

I don't think there can be one. And should a royal family be painted as this or decides itself to take on that role, it is misrepresenting its constituants. Perhaps once one could talk in generaliteis about the population of nationstates. But not anymore. For good and for ill.
I repeatedly pointed out that English monarchs never had supreme power, not Egyptian ones.

There are certainly a lot of foreign religions here, but the national spiritual figurehead should be under no obligation to represent them.
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