A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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duszek
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by duszek » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:46 pm

A correlation is not enough.

David Hume had even problems establishing causality as such.
When a ball touches another ball and the second one moves did the first one cause the movement of the second one ?

Thundril
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by Thundril » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:59 pm

duszek wrote:A correlation is not enough.

David Hume had even problems establishing causality as such.
When a ball touches another ball and the second one moves did the first one cause the movement of the second one ?
Dead right, Duszek. Correlation is no more than a clue. 'Considering the evidence' includes, but is not confined to, the collection of clues. Whoever on this thread suggested a correlation (positive ot negative) between religion and murder, it sure wasn't me. I just suggested doing some research.

duszek
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by duszek » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:18 pm

Is is easy to show that a correlation is not based on a cause-effect relationship.

To use a correlation as a prove for causality is most unscientific.

What kind of reaserch would prove causality between a religion and a crime rate ?

duszek
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by duszek » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:32 pm

The only research I can think of that would prove a causality between a religious belief and a crime would be:

You find a high percentage of criminals who say that God told them to commit this crime.

For example: 80 per cent of murderers say that they obeyed God in murdering.
And: you have to make sure somehow that they are not using God as an excuse.

chaz wyman
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by chaz wyman » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:37 pm

duszek wrote:The only research I can think of that would prove a causality between a religious belief and a crime would be:

You find a high percentage of criminals who say that God told them to commit this crime.

For example: 80 per cent of murderers say that they obeyed God in murdering.
And: you have to make sure somehow that they are not using God as an excuse.
There is a definite correlation.
The ratio of xians to atheists in prison is weighted to xians.

Thundril
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by Thundril » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:12 pm

duszek wrote:The only research I can think of that would prove a causality between a religious belief and a crime would be:

You find a high percentage of criminals who say that God told them to commit this crime.

For example: 80 per cent of murderers say that they obeyed God in murdering.
And: you have to make sure somehow that they are not using God as an excuse.
There is, I believe, a high incidence of serial killers claiming instruction from God. i for one would certainly not use this fact to suggest that Christians (or adherents of any other faith) tend to be murderers.
And by the same token, I wouldn't equate atheism with a propensity to mass-murder either.

Thundril
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by Thundril » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:15 pm

chaz wyman wrote:
There is a definite correlation.
The ratio of xians to atheists in prison is weighted to xians.
Is that in proportion to their incidence in the general poulation? Do they become Xian in prison, or just more devoutly so? Are they angling for parole points? Are they bored? Are they truly penitent all of a sudden? Or are Xians really more prone to criminality than atheists?
What do you think can sensibly be drawn from this statistic?

Godfree
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by Godfree » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:31 pm

As an Atheist I believe I am the most honest of the thinkers in our world .
I don't believe religious people are being honest with themselves .religion is the adult version of santa claus .
A pretty little fantasy to appease the worried minds of the stupid .
Before we had real knowledge , we had religion .
Religion tried to answer the big questions of existence , ie "how did we get here" , "what happens when we die" etc
One of my favourite quotes is from the time before christ ,and it goes ,
"A common person sees religion as real ,
a wise man sees it as false
and a politician sees religion as useful"
this was from around 500 years before christ ,
were pretty god damn slow on the uptake wouldn't you say,,!!!!!

chaz wyman
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by chaz wyman » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:27 am

Thundril wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
There is a definite correlation.
The ratio of xians to atheists in prison is weighted to xians.
Is that in proportion to their incidence in the general poulation?

Correct.

Do they become Xian in prison, or just more devoutly so? Are they angling for parole points? Are they bored? Are they truly penitent all of a sudden? Or are Xians really more prone to criminality than atheists?


Atheists are more represented among the more intelligent, who do not end up in prison as much as the stupid.


What do you think can sensibly be drawn from this statistic?

You are to be pretty stupid to swallow religion these days.

chaz wyman
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by chaz wyman » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:30 am

Godfree wrote:As an Atheist I believe I am the most honest of the thinkers in our world .
I don't believe religious people are being honest with themselves .religion is the adult version of santa claus .
A pretty little fantasy to appease the worried minds of the stupid .
Before we had real knowledge , we had religion .
Religion tried to answer the big questions of existence , ie "how did we get here" , "what happens when we die" etc
One of my favourite quotes is from the time before christ ,and it goes ,
"A common person sees religion as real ,
a wise man sees it as false
and a politician sees religion as useful"
this was from around 500 years before christ ,
were pretty god damn slow on the uptake wouldn't you say,,!!!!!
Actually the quote you have paraphrased is from Seneca (4 BC – 65 AD)

Otherwise - I agree with everything you say.

Godfree
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by Godfree » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:24 am

Religion is funded by western governments , we have the charitable trust scam where you donate to your church and then claim 60% of it back from the gov/tax payer . So I'm in part funding the morons and fundamentalists I loath .
Western governments are reluctant to fund Atheism and are only doing so through the heading of Skeptic .
A skeptic prefers the status quo , are not demanding change or getting rid of religion , and will challenge an Atheists claim that religion is wrong .
This is one area we can work on , getting funding through the charities , first the christian dictatorship has to agree to fund Atheism , and they won't.
But things are slowly changing .
It's people like you Chaz and myself , many others here , who will sow the seeds that will eventually bring about change .
So I treat it like a job and keep the FAITH that it isn't a waste of my time and energy . It is the best job I could do for humanity . The human species needs to move on and leave the ignorance of religion behind .
So it's up to us Chaz , no pressure mate . We just have to save humanity from the madness that is religion ,

chaz wyman
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by chaz wyman » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:26 am

Godfree wrote:Religion is funded by western governments , we have the charitable trust scam where you donate to your church and then claim 60% of it back from the gov/tax payer . So I'm in part funding the morons and fundamentalists I loath .
Western governments are reluctant to fund Atheism and are only doing so through the heading of Skeptic .
A skeptic prefers the status quo , are not demanding change or getting rid of religion , and will challenge an Atheists claim that religion is wrong .
This is one area we can work on , getting funding through the charities , first the christian dictatorship has to agree to fund Atheism , and they won't.
But things are slowly changing .
It's people like you Chaz and myself , many others here , who will sow the seeds that will eventually bring about change .
So I treat it like a job and keep the FAITH that it isn't a waste of my time and energy . It is the best job I could do for humanity . The human species needs to move on and leave the ignorance of religion behind .
So it's up to us Chaz , no pressure mate . We just have to save humanity from the madness that is religion ,
The CHurch of England receives ZERO from the government. The government gets to appoint bishops, and control many of the activities of the church - keeping it tradition, dusty and irrelevant.
I agree that we need to save humanity from religion, but I also recognise the adage- keep your friends close but you enemies closer. I want to keep the church under the control of the government, and not let it have a free-for-all like in the USA where it can pander to the masses and demand that all political candidates are religious.
The church is separate in the US, but controls everything. In the UK it is established and controls nothing.

Godfree
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by Godfree » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:24 pm

As an Atheist I quickly became aware that I'm greatly outnumbered out funded and in general not what people are looking for .
Just my sort of odds .
I'v always liked a challenge .
But as I said to my lovely daughter who is a medium and talks to dead people???
challenging main stream religion isn't challenge enough for the likes of me , I have to take on main stream science while I'm at it , just to keep my interest up you know ,I wouldn't want to fall asleep on the job.!!

chaz wyman
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by chaz wyman » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:16 pm

Godfree wrote:As an Atheist I quickly became aware that I'm greatly outnumbered out funded and in general not what people are looking for .
Just my sort of odds .
I'v always liked a challenge .
But as I said to my lovely daughter who is a medium and talks to dead people???
challenging main stream religion isn't challenge enough for the likes of me , I have to take on main stream science while I'm at it , just to keep my interest up you know ,I wouldn't want to fall asleep on the job.!!
I talk to dead people, but that does not make me a medium. They always answer in the way I expect them to answer. (ie from my memory).

Godfree
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Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by Godfree » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:02 am

Yes Chaz , you don't have to convince me , I love my daughter , she's wonderful , but I don't agree with her and I give her an honest response to questions when discussing such matters .
Her mother convinced her there were ghosts in the house they lived in when she was 9 or 10 .
It's very hard to undue that .
I have to let my daughter find her way to reality in her own time .

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