A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Belinda
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by Belinda »

"Supreme being" is not helpful as it encompasses the idea of hierarchical arrangement .

There is a being, but 'he' or 'she' is the still centre the Archimedean point that we need to refer to. The God I refer to as a "still" centre is negative theology, apophatic theology.

If we don't have this negative "still" centre we will idolise some lesser centre such as a royal personage, or self, or money, or an ideology.
bobmax
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by bobmax »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:19 pm
It's bizarre how you accuse others of blah blah blah.

Have you ever read yourself?

Logorrhea is often a symptom of lack of inner clarity.

In fact, I notice that you rarely reply on the subject by asking the reason for certain statements.

Why is it observed that there is only communication, without anyone communicating?
This may be a pertinent question.

But doing it... then you go really deep.
Better logorrhea.
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Dontaskme
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by Dontaskme »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:19 pm
And, yeah, sure, one can write in the flow of life...blah, blah.

But...nah, you wouldn't be here doing this. And the people who have achieved these states, they aren't online posting about and wordy wordy wording at other people who have and haven't.
Anyone who has achieved this state has only transcended an apparent false idea there is a 'someone' to achieve this state, and in that moment of contemplation it is seen that there is only HERE NOWhere a stateless state.

There is only life's ever-unfolding flux flowing ever-new in every flowering moment. . . including this...

And there is nowhere a Dam can form, within this seamless infinite unhindered unlimited flow.

The idea of Nonduality expresses how consciousness is like, prior to thoughts and concepts. This primal awareness is the indivisible condition in which everything that can happen, happens. Because all things arise in this space, awareness itself cannot be another thing, thus transcending the objective world.

The 'I' concept of self, can only be known to exist as a 'thought'. But the 'I' concept of self can also exist simultaneously as both the space in which the 'THOUGHT' is known as a temporal appearance within infinite space itself, which is empty and full of it's own thought, which are also empty.


No one knows this...because life is a dream dreamt by no one. Everything is in essence no thing. And no thing is everything.
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Dontaskme
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by Dontaskme »

bobmax wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:09 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:05 pm How is non-dualism communicated about?
There is only communication.

Without anyone communicating.

It is existence that seeks its own Transcendence.

The realization that there is no one, if not pure communication, can cause dismay.
The soul understands that it is nothing and has the crossroads in front of it:

* Getting lost in nihilism, as in this case.

* Or face nothingness in the name of one's faith in the Truth.

Basically it is a question of love.
If love is lacking, nihilism is inevitable
I think the idea of nihilism can be seen as a positive and not just be seen as something negative. The word 'nihilism' is often misundertood. Nihilism to me, would be a rejection of the 'false world' of symbols, memories, and the 'knowing' of others.
Nihilism, is an understanding that the world does not tell us what to believe, rather, the world just IS - and that nothing is inherently valuable or true that we can prove with absolute certainty, rather we can only elect to believe there is inherent value. Even if something can be proved to be of value and true, some people could still choose to disbelieve.

The ultimate depth of nondual realisation is achieved when you see that the absolute and the relative are ultimately not two (nondual). This is true Nonduality.

Another realisation is that there is only the BELOVED... therefore, love can never be lacking. Nondual awareness includes everything, even the dual perspective. Through transcendence we can understand that our individual personalities remain intact because they are inseparable from nondual awareness.

So yes, in essence, existence does apparently seek its own Transcendence, but this seeking is all within what we already are anyway, seeking is an integral part of the dream of separation where we temporally feel separated and in that undesired state we desire to come together again.

Everything in life is impermanent. Because of this Impermanence of all things, there is no appropriate context for a self to exist. Thus, what we call ourselves is best understood as a process rather than a thing.

However, this impermanence is not a reason to adopt a nihilistic attitude. The very idea of 'nihilism' is only within the dreamstate of duality.
bobmax
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by bobmax »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:32 am
bobmax wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:09 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:05 pm How is non-dualism communicated about?
There is only communication.

Without anyone communicating.

It is existence that seeks its own Transcendence.

The realization that there is no one, if not pure communication, can cause dismay.
The soul understands that it is nothing and has the crossroads in front of it:

* Getting lost in nihilism, as in this case.

* Or face nothingness in the name of one's faith in the Truth.

Basically it is a question of love.
If love is lacking, nihilism is inevitable
I think the idea of nihilism can be seen as a positive and not just be seen as something negative. The word 'nihilism' is often misundertood. Nihilism to me, would be a rejection of the 'false world' of symbols, memories, and the 'knowing' of others.
Nihilism, is an understanding that the world does not tell us what to believe, rather, the world just IS - and that nothing is inherently valuable or true that we can prove with absolute certainty, rather we can only elect to believe there is inherent value. Even if something can be proved to be of value and true, some people could still choose to disbelieve.

The ultimate depth of nondual realisation is achieved when you see that the absolute and the relative are ultimately not two (nondual). This is true Nonduality.

Another realisation is that there is only the BELOVED... therefore, love can never be lacking. Nondual awareness includes everything, even the dual perspective. Through transcendence we can understand that our individual personalities remain intact because they are inseparable from nondual awareness.

So yes, in essence, existence does apparently seek its own Transcendence, but this seeking is all within what we already are anyway, seeking is an integral part of the dream of separation where we temporally feel separated and in that undesired state we desire to come together again.

Everything in life is impermanent. Because of this Impermanence of all things, there is no appropriate context for a self to exist. Thus, what we call ourselves is best understood as a process rather than a thing.

However, this impermanence is not a reason to adopt a nihilistic attitude. The very idea of 'nihilism' is only within the dreamstate of duality.
If this is the meaning of "nihilism" for you, that's fine.
What matters is the meaning not the word itself.

And I am very happy for you!

I saw you lost in sadness and now you seem reborn.
I wish you all the best.
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by Dontaskme »

bobmax wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:51 pm
I saw you lost in sadness and now you seem reborn.
I'm aware of emotions and how they affect one's mood, but I'm never overwhelmed by a particular mood that I am lost in it.

I understand that everything we think, feel and experience will eventually pass. As they say, this too will pass, and it's true, everything passes away eventually, and that can be a sad thing to think about.

Even the idea of being reborn is just a temporal emotional feeling that is slowly slipping away from our grasp. There is nothing to hold on to, nothing to gain or win here in life, there is only the steady and slow letting go of everything we ever held dear.

How is that for a melancholy feeling for no obvious cause!
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by bobmax »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:59 pm
bobmax wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:51 pm
I saw you lost in sadness and now you seem reborn.
I'm aware of emotions and how they affect one's mood, but I'm never overwhelmed by a particular mood that I am lost in it.

I understand that everything we think, feel and experience will eventually pass. As they say, this too will pass, and it's true, everything passes away eventually, and that can be a sad thing to think about.

Even the idea of being reborn is just a temporal emotional feeling that is slowly slipping away from our grasp. There is nothing to hold on to, nothing to gain or win here in life, there is only the steady and slow letting go of everything we ever held dear.

How is that for a melancholy feeling for no obvious cause!
Yes, that the beloved has to go creates longing and melancholy.
And when the beloved is gone forever, the emptiness takes your breath away.

However, is it not necessary for the beloved to leave us?
If it ever went away wouldn't we be crystallized into a real nothing?

Instead the beloved goes away, but as he goes he becomes bigger, more perfect, more lovable.

I think the pain of goodbye has to do with our evolution.
We suffer because we lose a foothold, a consolation, a reassurance about ourselves.

The beloved who leaves asks us to go beyond ourselves.
Because we are just the beloved, what else?

Your melancholy indicates homecoming, only begotten daughter.
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by Dontaskme »

bobmax wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:34 pm
The beloved who leaves asks us to go beyond ourselves.
Because we are just the beloved, what else?

In my own direct experience there is only the beloved, which is just another word for everything which is just another word for nothing.

All alone. All ONE

Just me, myself, and I ... infinitely for eternity, there is no one because there is no other than one. You're the one, your IT.

THIS IS IT

Every one leaves - but I

I stay - I cannot leave I because there is only I the beloved.
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by bobmax »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:42 pm
bobmax wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:34 pm
The beloved who leaves asks us to go beyond ourselves.
Because we are just the beloved, what else?

In my own direct experience there is only the beloved, which is just another word for everything which is just another word for nothing.

All alone. All ONE

Just me, myself, and I ... infinitely for eternity, there is no one because there is no other than one. You're the one, your IT.

THIS IS IT

Every one leaves - but I

I stay - I cannot leave I because there is only I the beloved.
I think you caught something, but then you drew conclusions...

I think your feeling is genuine, but its interpretation can only be wrong.
Because it is impossible.

It is necessary to stop in front of the mystery.
It is impossible to interpret the perception of the One because logical thought inevitably contradicts itself.

To say "There is only the One" is a contradiction because the One cannot be there.
Being there is two.

But the emotion for what you have tried anyway pushes you to rationalize it.
And so you find yourself in mid-air, you are there and you are not there.

I too have had experiences that touched me deeply.
And I tried to interpret them. But then you have to give up.

And what do you need to surrender to?

To love.

I wish you to be conquered by love.
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by Dontaskme »

bobmax wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:12 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:42 pm
bobmax wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:34 pm
The beloved who leaves asks us to go beyond ourselves.
Because we are just the beloved, what else?

In my own direct experience there is only the beloved, which is just another word for everything which is just another word for nothing.

All alone. All ONE

Just me, myself, and I ... infinitely for eternity, there is no one because there is no other than one. You're the one, your IT.

THIS IS IT

Every one leaves - but I

I stay - I cannot leave I because there is only I the beloved.
I think you caught something, but then you drew conclusions...

I think your feeling is genuine, but its interpretation can only be wrong.
Because it is impossible.

It is necessary to stop in front of the mystery.
It is impossible to interpret the perception of the One because logical thought inevitably contradicts itself.

To say "There is only the One" is a contradiction because the One cannot be there.
Being there is two.

But the emotion for what you have tried anyway pushes you to rationalize it.
And so you find yourself in mid-air, you are there and you are not there.

I too have had experiences that touched me deeply.
And I tried to interpret them. But then you have to give up.

And what do you need to surrender to?

To love.

I wish you to be conquered by love.
Ok :shock: Ok whatever you say.

You can only be the LOVE of your own understanding, but that does not mean what is your experience will be mine also.

We can only undertstand the LOVE of our own understanding.

We have no access to any other love than the love that emanates from our own being which is loves only real source.
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by Dontaskme »

Everyone who wants to go through the wild goose chase phase of seeking should do so. In the sense that the artificial 'sense of separate self' is a curious phenomena, and should seek only to realise for themself that there is nothing at the end of the road. To discover there is nothing that you are going to find but a dead end.
Your just going to come right back to your present self. That's all you are going to do, that's all you are going to find. In seeking there is nothing to find that is not already who or where you are and have always been. This is it, this is all there is.

Non-Duality - simply means you come to understand that there's no Enlightment to find. There's simply being and no one being being. This is it. Animals are it, you are it, nature is it, the universe it it, the trees are it, it's all simply ( This ) IS it.

So what about the state of ''Thought Free Awareness'' ?

In essence life is all TFW at it's basic fundmental core. That's all life is. Prior to 'thought' there's no God, no Spirituality, no Metaphysics, no Jesus, no Beloved, no Religion, no Any Thing...there's just THIS - as it is - absent of concept, and always will be and has been.

'Thoughts' are nothing but impressions upon the blank canvas of reality, they are simply imagination, the paint of dreams upon the screen of imageless consciousness creating the effect of a real, live, living, movie of actual 'things' ...albeit a fictional/illusory movie.

Responsibilty is also this...for only reactions are known here. There's no actions, only reactions.
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by Belinda »

The idea of a supreme being (God) is defined by positive attributes as in the Gospels. In the jargon this is called cataphatic theology.Cataphatic theology holds that God is at the top of a hierarchy of goodness, compassion and so forth.


Cataphatic theology is contrasted with apophatic theology where God is not at the top of a hierachy. In apophatic theology God is at the centre of a network, undefined , a still point. The famous rose windows of great cathedrals illustrate the apophatic image of God.

Plato's allegory of The Cave is misconstrued when the man who has freed himself to view the light sees the sun as the top of a hierarchy of power. What Plato meant was that the freed man sees the light, not as the best in a hierarchy of shadows, but as all- pervading. The light that is not this and not that but is undefined so it is everywhere equally. Apophatic theology is especially present in neoplatonism and gnosticism.
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by Dontaskme »

Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:47 am The idea of a supreme being (God) is defined by positive attributes as in the Gospels. In the jargon this is called cataphatic theology.Cataphatic theology holds that God is at the top of a hierarchy of goodness, compassion and so forth.


Cataphatic theology is contrasted with apophatic theology where God is not at the top of a hierachy. In apophatic theology God is at the centre of a network, undefined , a still point. The famous rose windows of great cathedrals illustrate the apophatic image of God.

Plato's allegory of The Cave is misconstrued when the man who has freed himself to view the light sees the sun as the top of a hierarchy of power. What Plato meant was that the freed man sees the light, not as the best in a hierarchy of shadows, but as all- pervading. The light that is not this and not that but is undefined so it is everywhere equally. Apophatic theology is especially present in neoplatonism and gnosticism.
I agree B and nicely put.

The seer of the shadow in Plato's cave is the LIGHT reflecting itself via the contrast of an object as a way to become known, and that which is KNOWN knows nothing, because there can be no shadow without the light. But there can be light without a shadow.


.
Belinda
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Re: A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.

Post by Belinda »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:06 am
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:47 am The idea of a supreme being (God) is defined by positive attributes as in the Gospels. In the jargon this is called cataphatic theology.Cataphatic theology holds that God is at the top of a hierarchy of goodness, compassion and so forth.


Cataphatic theology is contrasted with apophatic theology where God is not at the top of a hierachy. In apophatic theology God is at the centre of a network, undefined , a still point. The famous rose windows of great cathedrals illustrate the apophatic image of God.

Plato's allegory of The Cave is misconstrued when the man who has freed himself to view the light sees the sun as the top of a hierarchy of power. What Plato meant was that the freed man sees the light, not as the best in a hierarchy of shadows, but as all- pervading. The light that is not this and not that but is undefined so it is everywhere equally. Apophatic theology is especially present in neoplatonism and gnosticism.
I agree B and nicely put.

The seer of the shadow in Plato's cave is the LIGHT reflecting itself via the contrast of an object as a way to become known, and that which is KNOWN knows nothing, because there can be no shadow without the light. But there can be light without a shadow.


.
Back at you, your corollary also is nicely put.
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