theodicy

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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iambiguous
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Re: theodicy

Post by iambiguous »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 1:12 am
iambiguous wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:58 pm
attofishpi wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:07 am There is only one type of evil, and that is wo/man inflicting evil to other sentient beings (animals, wo/men, children)
Right. So, this part...

"...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages"

...is not evil
Correct.
Note below: "God has limits to suffering, such that what we witness to others' suffering is not always to the case - in the extremes - that God can take ones soul - in the case of an Earthquake, Volcano, Flood - PRIOR to great suffering - OH YE OF LITTLE FAITH - in your case NONE!!"

iambiguous wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:58 pm.. because the loving, just and merciful God that creates the conditions that sustains them century after century after century after century works in "mysterious ways" far beyond the grasp of mere mortals.
Oh, I for one can account that IT works in mysterious ways. Understand this:- God has created Earth, a place with much imperfection, allowing us humans to have much to learn about to correct the imperfections. This IS a type of perfection since intelligence beings WE humans, need reason to learn. Therefore, we can study the humans anatomy and the depths of biology to counter viruses, we can learn about plate tectonics, indeed, we can learn about everything forever hoping to create perfection. Imagine a "heaven" where there was no imperfection, no reason to learn to conquer etc..we would be bored out of our minds! You state God as loving and merciful..well understand this, God has limits to suffering, such that what we witness to others' suffering is not always to the case - in the extremes - that God can take ones soul - in the case of an Earthquake, Volcano, Flood - PRIOR to great suffering - OH YE OF LITTLE FAITH - in your case NONE!!


iambiguous wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:58 pmAnd my own, at times, sardonic reaction to those here able to swallow that hook, line and sinker revolves mostly around the fact that I want God to exist. If only that there be an explanation for this terrible, terrible human suffering. After all, in a No God world these ghastly things are but the "brute facticity" of an essentially meaningless and purposeless human existence.

Right?
What suffering? Re-read my above statement, and I have suffered MORE THAN ANYONE I KNOW...at the hands of this "merciful God'!! So fuck u with your 'sardonic' witlessness!! lol. Yeah, I did not mention and include God in my statement about evil - IT does have another side to it for those that want to comprehend the Tree of Know_Ledge.

iambiguous wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:58 pmAnd, in part, I scoff at the True Believers here not because they believe what they do, but because they are unable to convince me to believe it as well.
I have gnosis and am beyone mere belief, thus I scoff at most people. :P

I have provided you with enough evidence to prove Beyone a Reasonable DO_U_BT that a 3rd party intelligence/God is behind the construct to reality, here:-
viewtopic.php?t=33214
Unbelievable.

This sort of ridiculous "assessment" is basically what one comes to expect now over at the New ILP. But it still boggles my mind to find it in a forum that is derived from Philosophy Now magazine.

This is the sort of "argument" one would expect to come upon in church or around the family dinner table at, say, the Mike Pence or the Amy Coney Barrett household.

But here?!
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attofishpi
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Re: theodicy

Post by attofishpi »

Listen dipshit, enough with the ad hominem reply, address each point, let's see what you got.
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Re: theodicy

Post by seeds »

iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:17 am
seeds wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 9:34 pm
seeds wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:17 pm And please don't just say that you simply wouldn't include the array of negatives listed in your standard rant on the subject. In other words, be specific in the naming of the methods you would allow for how humans might meet their demise.
iambiguous wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:24 pm The methods might be anything.
Such as?

Again, name the methods of death that you personally would allow in your world.

And the ambiguousness of you simply saying that the "...methods might be anything..." might justify you calling yourself "iambiguous," but it does not answer my question.
_______
Come on. This thread is not about me being God. It's about reconciling the God that many believe in with this:

"...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages"

With this: https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/chi ... conditions

And what difference does it make what methods any of us come up with as long as it did not result in the terrible pain and suffering that we know has been endured by countless millions of human beings over the millennia here on planet Earth.
You need to stop trying to reconcile the "...God that many believe in..." (which could be false and nonsensical) with your list of grievances,...

...and instead try to focus on whether or not an unfathomably advanced (and transcendent) Being who is capable of creating a hundred billion galaxies of suns and planets out of the living fabric of its very own mind, would have a logical reason for allowing such things?

In other words, stop basing your assessment of God's motives on the limited scope of the Epicurean riddle.

Furthermore, you might also try being open to the possibility that the "end"...

(eternal life in "true reality" with a wonderful, ever-evolving, and ever-fruitful purpose)

...may indeed "justify the means" by which we must momentarily function on this planet.
_______
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iambiguous
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Re: theodicy

Post by iambiguous »

seeds wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 1:30 pm You need to stop trying to reconcile the "...God that many believe in..." (which could be false and nonsensical) with your list of grievances,...

...and instead try to focus on whether or not an unfathomably advanced (and transcendent) Being who is capable of creating a hundred billion galaxies of suns and planets out of the living fabric of its very own mind, would have a logical reason for allowing such things?

In other words, stop basing your assessment of God's motives on the limited scope of the Epicurean riddle.

Furthermore, you might also try being open to the possibility that the "end"...

(eternal life in "true reality" with a wonderful, ever-evolving, and ever-fruitful purpose)

...may indeed "justify the means" by which we must momentarily function on this planet.
_______
How about this...

You go to a hospital like St. Jude and note the above to the children who are suffering from one of the more severe childhood afflictions here:

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/chi ... conditions

See if that soothes their soul.

Of course, the doctors and the nurses and the parents of these kids are not likely to be focusing in on God's logic here. Instead, they have faith that, well beyond anything they could possibly understand about God's mysterious ways, one day their souls and the souls of all the departed will gather around their Creator in Paradise and -- as souls? -- live happily ever after.

Here, however, in a philosophy forum, it's not what we believe in our head is true about God and theodicy but what we are, to the best of our ability, able to demonstrate that all rational men and women are obligated to believe in turn.

Starting with proof that of all the countless renditions of God there are out there, your God is in fact the real deal.

Then moving on to theodicy.

Again, sure, for the sake of all the millions of truly innocent children down through the ages who suffered terribly from what the lawyers call "acts of God", I'd truly like to be convinced myself that, down the road, all is well that ends well in Heaven.

Give it a shot.
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Re: theodicy

Post by attofishpi »

How do you know they were truly innocent, that in their previous lives they were not total cunts :P
Belinda
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Re: theodicy

Post by Belinda »

iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:05 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 1:30 pm You need to stop trying to reconcile the "...God that many believe in..." (which could be false and nonsensical) with your list of grievances,...

...and instead try to focus on whether or not an unfathomably advanced (and transcendent) Being who is capable of creating a hundred billion galaxies of suns and planets out of the living fabric of its very own mind, would have a logical reason for allowing such things?

In other words, stop basing your assessment of God's motives on the limited scope of the Epicurean riddle.

Furthermore, you might also try being open to the possibility that the "end"...

(eternal life in "true reality" with a wonderful, ever-evolving, and ever-fruitful purpose)

...may indeed "justify the means" by which we must momentarily function on this planet.
_______
How about this...

You go to a hospital like St. Jude and note the above to the children who are suffering from one of the more severe childhood afflictions here:

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/chi ... conditions

See if that soothes their soul.

Of course, the doctors and the nurses and the parents of these kids are not likely to be focusing in on God's logic here. Instead, they have faith that, well beyond anything they could possibly understand about God's mysterious ways, one day their souls and the souls of all the departed will gather around their Creator in Paradise and -- as souls? -- live happily ever after.

Here, however, in a philosophy forum, it's not what we believe in our head is true about God and theodicy but what we are, to the best of our ability, able to demonstrate that all rational men and women are obligated to believe in turn.

Starting with proof that of all the countless renditions of God there are out there, your God is in fact the real deal.

Then moving on to theodicy.

Again, sure, for the sake of all the millions of truly innocent children down through the ages who suffered terribly from what the lawyers call "acts of God", I'd truly like to be convinced myself that, down the road, all is well that ends well in Heaven.

Give it a shot.
Truly the old God is dead. We must construct a new one that we know to be a psychological construct.
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Re: theodicy

Post by seeds »

Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:42 am Truly the old God is dead. We must construct a new one that we know to be a psychological construct.
Well, the fact of the matter is that pretty much all concepts of God are "psychological constructs," but, yes, Belinda, you nailed it.

Furthermore, the new construct (just like the old ones) doesn't even have to be true.

No, it just needs to make more sense than those that preceded it.
_______
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Re: theodicy

Post by Immanuel Can »

seeds wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:12 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:42 am Truly the old God is dead. We must construct a new one that we know to be a psychological construct.
Well, the fact of the matter is that pretty much all concepts of God are "psychological constructs," but, yes, Belinda, you nailed it.

Furthermore, the new construct (just like the old ones) doesn't even have to be true.

No, it just needs to make more sense than those that preceded it.
_______
That’s about as useless an idea as I can possibly imagine. We lack a “god,” so we invent one, because we really know none exists, but we might find it, in some way, “useful” to believe in untrue things? :shock:

And which new “Pope” gets to design this conception of “god” to which we’re all so passionately going to buy in, even while knowing it’s a crock? And what gives us such confidence that this new “Pope” will be a good boy, and design for us the kind of “god” that will serve our purposes rather than his own?

Oh, here he is. :evil:
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Re: theodicy

Post by seeds »

iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:05 pm ...in a philosophy forum, it's not what we believe in our head is true about God and theodicy but what we are, to the best of our ability, able to demonstrate that all rational men and women are obligated to believe in turn.

Starting with proof that of all the countless renditions of God there are out there, your God is in fact the real deal.
Do you even have the slightest idea of what my concept of God actually entails?

Or are you arguing with me from within the fortress of your incredulous feelings about the mythological nonsense handed down to us from ancient minds?
iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:05 pm Then moving on to theodicy.

Again, sure, for the sake of all the millions of truly innocent children down through the ages who suffered terribly from what the lawyers call "acts of God", I'd truly like to be convinced myself that, down the road, all is well that ends well in Heaven.

Give it a shot.
Okay, but to begin the process of "...giving it a shot...", I first need to present to you the same little thought experiment that I offered to Veritas Aequitas (and even to Belinda a long time ago).

Here it is...
  • If science discovered direct (and irrefutable) proof that your life (your mind and consciousness) will continue on after death in a new and wondrous form, and in a higher and a more desirable context of reality,...

    (I'm talking about a higher context of reality that makes our present context of reality seem like some kind of hell in comparison)

    ...and that all you had to do to enter this higher context of reality was to "open a door" and step across the threshold...

    Image

    (i.e., find a quick and painless way of inducing death - with death being the metaphorical "doorway" to the higher context of reality)

    ...what would you do?

    Would you stay here and needlessly endure the pains and sufferings of this lower context of reality until death eventually finds you anyway...

    ...or...

    ...would you simply walk through the doorway right now and enter into the, again, "scientifically verified" (as in absolutely guaranteed) higher context of reality where you (and everyone you know and love) will live forever in a new and wondrous form (indeed, the same form as God)?
(Remember, this is just a simple little "thought experiment," so try to keep your answer within the bounds of its premise and, above all, try to be honest about it.)

Again, what would you do?
_______
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Re: theodicy

Post by Belinda »

seeds wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:12 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:42 am Truly the old God is dead. We must construct a new one that we know to be a psychological construct.
Well, the fact of the matter is that pretty much all concepts of God are "psychological constructs," but, yes, Belinda, you nailed it.

Furthermore, the new construct (just like the old ones) doesn't even have to be true.

No, it just needs to make more sense than those that preceded it.
_______
What is absolute truth? Nobody can nail it down. What matters is we love it and seek it in this relative world.
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iambiguous
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Re: theodicy

Post by iambiguous »

seeds wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:15 pm
iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:05 pm ...in a philosophy forum, it's not what we believe in our head is true about God and theodicy but what we are, to the best of our ability, able to demonstrate that all rational men and women are obligated to believe in turn.

Starting with proof that of all the countless renditions of God there are out there, your God is in fact the real deal.
Do you even have the slightest idea of what my concept of God actually entails?
Again, unbelievable!

Above I note that I am considerably less interested in what men and women conceive God to be "in their heads", and considerably more drawn to their attempts at demonstrating why all rational folks are obligated to conceive the same.

And I get this from him/her.
seeds wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:15 pmOr are you arguing with me from within the fortress of your incredulous feelings about the mythological nonsense handed down to us from ancient minds?
No, I'm arguing [on this thread] that it is very, very difficult for me to reconcile what some construe to be a loving, just and merciful God -- an omniscient and omnipotent God -- with this:

"...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages"
iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:05 pm Then moving on to theodicy.

Again, sure, for the sake of all the millions of truly innocent children down through the ages who suffered terribly from what the lawyers call "acts of God", I'd truly like to be convinced myself that, down the road, all is well that ends well in Heaven.

Give it a shot.
seeds wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:15 pmOkay, but to begin the process of "...giving it a shot...", I first need to present to you the same little thought experiment that I offered to Veritas Aequitas (and even to Belinda a long time ago).

Here it is...
  • If science discovered direct (and irrefutable) proof that your life (your mind and consciousness) will continue on after death in a new and wondrous form, and in a higher and a more desirable context of reality,...

    (I'm talking about a higher context of reality that makes our present context of reality seem like some kind of hell in comparison)

    ...and that all you had to do to enter this higher context of reality was to "open a door" and step across the threshold...

    Image

    (i.e., find a quick and painless way of inducing death - with death being the metaphorical "doorway" to the higher context of reality)

    ...what would you do?

    Would you stay here and needlessly endure the pains and sufferings of this lower context of reality until death eventually finds you anyway...

    ...or...

    ...would you simply walk through the doorway right now and enter into the, again, "scientifically verified" (as in absolutely guaranteed) higher context of reality where you (and everyone you know and love) will live forever in a new and wondrous form (indeed, the same form as God)?
(Remember, this is just a simple little "thought experiment," so try to keep your answer within the bounds of its premise and, above all, try to be honest about it.)

Again, what would you do?
_______
Again: Simply unbelievable!!!

I ask seeds to react to this:
Again, sure, for the sake of all the millions of truly innocent children down through the ages who suffered terribly from what the lawyers call "acts of God", I'd truly like to be convinced myself that, down the road, all is well that ends well in Heaven.
And the above is what he or she deems to be an adequate rejoinder: a thought experiment!!!

Sure, if scientists discovered this door -- think Carl Sagan's wormhole in Contact -- I'd ask them for more details regarding this "higher more desirable context of reality" and, if I liked what I heard, I'd walk through the door.

But this has exactly what to with religious denominations substituting their Scriptures for "direct (and irrefutable) proof" of the door?

And where does the part about theodicy fit in? If I walk through the scientifically discovered door, will all the terrible human pain and suffering down through the ages be explained on the other side of it?
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theidiocy

Post by uwot »

Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:28 pmWhat is absolute truth? Nobody can nail it down.
We know the limits of our absolute knowledge. This was nailed down by Parmenides and Descartes - at any given moment we know that whatever experience we are having, it exists. Whatever you see, hear, smell, taste or feel, whatever sense of Belindaness you currently have - that absolutely exists. The thing is, as Parmenides and Descartes discovered, nothing absolute follows from that. You might define 'absolute truth' as the cause of the experiences you have - broadly speaking materialists claim there is some underlying 'physical' world that stimulates certain reactions in a physical brain. On the other hand, with a slash of Occam's Razor, idealists do away with the physical world and argue that since all that is necessary is the mental phenomena, that's all that exists. The world looks exactly the same whichever view you subscribe to.
Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:28 pmWhat matters is we love it and seek it in this relative world.
Well yeah, and well done if you find some story you take to be true. The problem is the people who have a rotten story they believe and want others to believe it.
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Re: theodicy

Post by seeds »

iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:05 pm Then moving on to theodicy.

Again, sure, for the sake of all the millions of truly innocent children down through the ages who suffered terribly from what the lawyers call "acts of God", I'd truly like to be convinced myself that, down the road, all is well that ends well in Heaven.

Give it a shot.
seeds wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:15 pm Okay, but to begin the process of "...giving it a shot...", I first need to present to you the same little thought experiment that I offered to Veritas Aequitas (and even to Belinda a long time ago).

Here it is...
  • If science discovered direct (and irrefutable) proof that your life (your mind and consciousness) will continue on after death in a new and wondrous form, and in a higher and a more desirable context of reality,...

    (I'm talking about a higher context of reality that makes our present context of reality seem like some kind of hell in comparison)

    ...and that all you had to do to enter this higher context of reality was to "open a door" and step across the threshold...

    Image

    (i.e., find a quick and painless way of inducing death - with death being the metaphorical "doorway" to the higher context of reality)

    ...what would you do?

    Would you stay here and needlessly endure the pains and sufferings of this lower context of reality until death eventually finds you anyway...

    ...or...

    ...would you simply walk through the doorway right now and enter into the, again, "scientifically verified" (as in absolutely guaranteed) higher context of reality where you (and everyone you know and love) will live forever in a new and wondrous form (indeed, the same form as God)?
(Remember, this is just a simple little "thought experiment," so try to keep your answer within the bounds of its premise and, above all, try to be honest about it.)

Again, what would you do?
iambiguous wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:20 pm Again: Simply unbelievable!!!

I ask seeds to react to this:
Again, sure, for the sake of all the millions of truly innocent children down through the ages who suffered terribly from what the lawyers call "acts of God", I'd truly like to be convinced myself that, down the road, all is well that ends well in Heaven.
And the above is what he or she deems to be an adequate rejoinder: a thought experiment!!!
Stop being so bull-headed and pay attention to what I wrote.

I clearly stated that in order to begin the process of "...giving it a shot...", I first needed to present to you a little thought experiment.

Which means that before I can address your incessantly repeated complaint about the negative issues plaguing the world, I first needed to elicit from you your honest response to the thought experiment, of which you have done so in the following statement...
iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:05 pm Sure, if scientists discovered this door...I'd ask them for more details regarding this "higher more desirable context of reality" and, if I liked what I heard, I'd walk through the door.
For you see, by making that totally logical, honest, and rational statement, you have just proven - proven! - why it is absolutely essential that the truth of the existence of God (and that of our ultimate and eternal destiny) remains hidden from us.

Why?

:!: Because if ancient humans had known that all they had to do was to "walk through" that metaphorical "doorway," and not only would they no longer have to endure...
"...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages"
...but they would also awaken into their true and eternal form,...

(again, the same form as God)

...then they most assuredly (just like you) would have done it right from the start.

Which means that neither you, nor I, nor the nearly 8 billion other human souls presently on earth would have ever come into existence.

Now, besides the unfathomable size and complexity of the universe making it extremely difficult to believe that a singular living consciousness could create and control such a vast dimension of reality,...

...what else is it about our situation here on earth that makes you, iambiguous, highly doubt the existence of God, thus helping to maintain the secret of our ultimate destiny?

Clearly, it's this...
"...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages"
...for you are living proof of its efficacy in helping to keep the secret safe and secure.

And why does the secret need to be safe and secure?

Well, go back up in my post to where you find this symbol :!: and then keep rereading what follows it until it finally sinks in.
iambiguous wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:20 pm And where does the part about theodicy fit in? If I walk through the scientifically discovered door, will all the terrible human pain and suffering down through the ages be explained on the other side of it?
That would be a great big YES!

However, if you continue to insist on your necessity of having irrefutable proof of the truth of our ultimate and eternal form and destiny while we are still on earth, then, once again, find this symbol :!: above and keep rereading what follows it.
_______
Belinda
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Re: theodicy

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:39 pm
seeds wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:12 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:42 am Truly the old God is dead. We must construct a new one that we know to be a psychological construct.
Well, the fact of the matter is that pretty much all concepts of God are "psychological constructs," but, yes, Belinda, you nailed it.

Furthermore, the new construct (just like the old ones) doesn't even have to be true.

No, it just needs to make more sense than those that preceded it.
_______
That’s about as useless an idea as I can possibly imagine. We lack a “god,” so we invent one, because we really know none exists, but we might find it, in some way, “useful” to believe in untrue things? :shock:

And which new “Pope” gets to design this conception of “god” to which we’re all so passionately going to buy in, even while knowing it’s a crock? And what gives us such confidence that this new “Pope” will be a good boy, and design for us the kind of “god” that will serve our purposes rather than his own?

Oh, here he is. :evil:
In a way we "invent" all our ideas. I believe Plato "invented" the idea of the Form of the Good, the True and the Beautiful.

Authorities, such as popes who claim to speak on behalf of God ,are becoming defunct, as Nietzsche noted.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: theodicy

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:05 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:39 pm
seeds wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:12 pm
Well, the fact of the matter is that pretty much all concepts of God are "psychological constructs," but, yes, Belinda, you nailed it.

Furthermore, the new construct (just like the old ones) doesn't even have to be true.

No, it just needs to make more sense than those that preceded it.
_______
That’s about as useless an idea as I can possibly imagine. We lack a “god,” so we invent one, because we really know none exists, but we might find it, in some way, “useful” to believe in untrue things? :shock:

And which new “Pope” gets to design this conception of “god” to which we’re all so passionately going to buy in, even while knowing it’s a crock? And what gives us such confidence that this new “Pope” will be a good boy, and design for us the kind of “god” that will serve our purposes rather than his own?

Oh, here he is. :evil:
In a way we "invent" all our ideas. I believe Plato "invented" the idea of the Form of the Good, the True and the Beautiful.

Authorities, such as popes who claim to speak on behalf of God ,are becoming defunct, as Nietzsche noted.
And yet, by your plan, we’ll need a new one. Or maybe some new group of elitists. But for sure, somebody’s going to have to invent the mythical “god” with which you hope to replace the real One. So you’ll have a Pope…just not one that’s beholden to any truth.
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