Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:20 am
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:07 am
" Therefore God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world,
predestinating us to the adoption of children, not because we were going to
be of ourselves holy and immaculate, but He chose and predestinated us that
we might be so. Moreover, He did this according to the good pleasure of His
will, so that nobody might glory concerning his own will, but about God's will
towards Himself.'' St. Augustine
Augustine's idea of God is deterministic as in 'God is all-powerful', and also optimistic as in 'God is all-good'.
DAM 's stance seems to be deterministic ("The Father"). However DAM is saying that the details of this ultimate reality , "the Father" , are for us to decide on. Therefore the quote from Augustine is not appropriate.
Both Augustine and DAM fail to account for natural evils such as pestilence, ignorance, and huge volcano eruption. Augustine is especially disappointing in his apparent ignorance of the Book of Job. In this Biblical story, the hero, Job, submits to natural evils that befall him ; however for mysterious reasons Job remains a believer.
DAM, as always, believes there is nothing but thinking makes it so, including selves. I agree with DAM insofar as, in a relative world, this is all we can know. However if we were omniscient we would know what selves are and what everything else is including values of good and evil. This is why omniscience is a key attribute of God.
In Augustine's sentence the last part is especially significant:
"
Moreover, He did this according to the good pleasure of His will, so that nobody might glory concerning his own will, but about God's will towards Himself. ''
This concept is taken up by Christian mysticism.
For which every creature, as well as anything one does, is nothing.
Because the glory of being and of action is entirely to be attributed to God.
For the simple but difficult reason that there is only one will: God's will.
I think that predetermination must be understood metaphorically.
In the sense that God is certainly not subject to time, but originates time as well as all the rest.
If there is only God's will, there is also no determinism. There is no before and no after. The Cosmos is but a gift of Chaos.
There is therefore no need for God to be omniscient.
An attribute that, albeit paradoxically, would limit Him.
It is thought necessary because, mistakenly, it is assumed that God is an entity.
But to attribute anything to God is only superstition, indeed a blasphemy: do not take God's name in vain.
If not maybe, dare to believe in God = Good.