The problem of evil

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 9:44 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 8:37 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 8:30 pm

❓

No. He needs a bullet in the chest and another in the head.
Now, you are not making any sense!
❓

Tell me which is more sensible...

End the low-down piece of crap who leashes others.

Educate the low-down piece of crap who leashes others.

In the first: the problem is solved.

In the second: how in hell is the problem solved? You would do what? Slap his wrist and teach him what he already knows? Forgive him his sins and have him say the Rosary?

Really, how do you educate pond scum out of sumthin' he already knows is full-out, no holds barred, wrong?

No. You kill the slaver, full stop, do not pass go.

End him.
There is a difference between knowing something and knowing something and submitting to it. It is a matter of respecting yourself when you know something is right and submit to it. We need to educate people from childhood to respect themselves and act according to what they think is right.
seeds
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by seeds »

bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:35 pm
seeds wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:59 pm
seeds wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 12:05 am
Then I would say that you are full of crap (even more than usual).

In my prior post, I suggested that these dunce-capped, bone-headed idiots...

Image

...function at an extremely low level of consciousness which results in a hatred of black people and the committing of heinous acts such as this...

Image

...and this...

Image

So, please show me what exactly is "good" about the low consciousness of racist white people?


Apparently, bahman, you and I have a completely different interpretation of what being "all-wise" means.

Stop making ridiculous statements.
bahman wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 3:21 pm You are equating ignorance with evil. Evil is permissible given the situation. Ignorance should be avoided at all costs.
No, bahman, I am offering a plausible explanation for the existence so-called "evilness" in humans.

And it is based on the proposition that humans are awakened into life on earth with an "attenuated" level of consciousness that makes being a human feel "natural" to us, as was pointed out to VA in an alternate thread...
seeds wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:23 pm It seems quite obvious (to me, anyway) that humans are born with what appears to be a "fixed" [and attenuated] level of consciousness that makes being a human feel natural to us...

Image

And that would be in the same way that cats or dogs, for example, are born with a "fixed" [and even more attenuated] level of consciousness that makes being a cat or a dog feel natural to them...

Image
Moreover, it also keeps us from noticing how utterly strange it is to be topsy-turvy to each other while standing on a ball suspended in a vast spatial dimension...

Image

I'm talking about a ball that not only flies laterally through space at approximately 67,000 miles per hour, but a ball upon which vast oceans, and huge human metropolises are spun around-and-around - (upside-down from each other) - in a rotisserie cycle that only takes a mere 24 hours to complete.

It is all totally bizarre, yet humans are basically oblivious to what's really going on.

And the point is that the general level of consciousness that humans are "programmed" to function at in order for our strange setting and circumstances to, again, feel "natural" to us,...

...comes with the unfortunate by-product of causing many of us to be completely unaware (unconscious) of just how evil our actions can be.

For example, the state of mind of these folks,...

Image

...who felt completely justified in murdering and mutilating Emmett Till (the 14 year old black child shown at the top of this post) because he allegedly "whistled" at the white woman on the right hand side of the above picture.

Sure, there may be an element of "ignorance" involved, but such cold-heartedness demonstrates a near animal level of consciousness and a firm residence on the "basement rung" of the illustration I provided in a prior post, which, in turn, results in what we think of as "evilness" in humans.

Indeed, this is all summed-up quite nicely in what Jesus allegedly uttered while dying on the cross:
"...Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do..."

By the way, the Adam and Eve story is nothing more than mythological fantasy.

Furthermore, if you were hoping that Immanual Can was going to discuss the consequences of A and E's alleged sin in Eden, he has already stuck his foot in his mouth in an alternate thread by making the following statements to Belinda...
seeds wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:08 pm

Wow, that's one of the most brazenly hypocritical things I have ever heard a Christian say.

Indeed, you have just inadvertently (and correctly) admitted that the very premise upon which Christianity is founded...

(i.e., "original sin")

...is not only ridiculous, but "hogwash."
He, of course, tried to weasel his way out of that faux pas (but failed miserably).
_______
Think of killing. It is evil. But think of a person who lives with locked-in syndrome. Killing him/her is allowed if he/she wants it. So you see that evil is permissible sometimes.
Do you actually think that your little "Twitteresque" length responses cover the points I am making?

I thought you wanted to discuss the roots and reasons for the existence of evil?

Instead, you offer me silly little strawman arguments.

For crying out loud, bahman, put some thought and effort into your replies!
_______
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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

seeds wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:43 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:35 pm
seeds wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:59 pm

No, bahman, I am offering a plausible explanation for the existence so-called "evilness" in humans.

And it is based on the proposition that humans are awakened into life on earth with an "attenuated" level of consciousness that makes being a human feel "natural" to us, as was pointed out to VA in an alternate thread...


Moreover, it also keeps us from noticing how utterly strange it is to be topsy-turvy to each other while standing on a ball suspended in a vast spatial dimension...

Image

I'm talking about a ball that not only flies laterally through space at approximately 67,000 miles per hour, but a ball upon which vast oceans, and huge human metropolises are spun around-and-around - (upside-down from each other) - in a rotisserie cycle that only takes a mere 24 hours to complete.

It is all totally bizarre, yet humans are basically oblivious to what's really going on.

And the point is that the general level of consciousness that humans are "programmed" to function at in order for our strange setting and circumstances to, again, feel "natural" to us,...

...comes with the unfortunate by-product of causing many of us to be completely unaware (unconscious) of just how evil our actions can be.

For example, the state of mind of these folks,...

Image

...who felt completely justified in murdering and mutilating Emmit Till (the 14 year old black child shown at the top of this post) because he allegedly "whistled" at the white woman on the right hand side of the above picture.

Sure, there may be an element of "ignorance" involved, but such cold-heartedness demonstrates a near animal level of consciousness and a firm residence on the "basement rung" of the illustration I provided in a prior post, which, in turn, results in what we think of as "evilness" in humans.

Indeed, this is all summed-up quite nicely in what Jesus allegedly uttered while dying on the cross:

By the way, the Adam and Eve story is nothing more than mythological fantasy.

Furthermore, if you were hoping that Immanual Can was going to discuss the consequences of A and E's alleged sin in Eden, he has already stuck his foot in his mouth in an alternate thread by making the following statements to Belinda...


He, of course, tried to weasel his way out of that faux pas (but failed miserably).
_______
Think of killing. It is evil. But think of a person who lives with locked-in syndrome. Killing him/her is allowed if he/she wants it. So you see that evil is permissible sometimes.
Do you actually think that your little "Twitteresque" length responses cover the points I am making?

I thought you wanted to discuss the roots and reasons for the existence of evil?

Instead, you offer me silly little strawman arguments.

For crying out loud, bahman, put some thought and effort into your replies!
_______
I am trying to discuss the problem of evil in Christianity as it is pointed out in my OP. You are free to read it and we can start from scratch. Are you a Christian? Do you believe in verses of Genises literally?
seeds
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by seeds »

bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:35 pm Think of killing. It is evil. But think of a person who lives with locked-in syndrome. Killing him/her is allowed if he/she wants it. So you see that evil is permissible sometimes.
seeds wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:43 pm Do you actually think that your little "Twitteresque" length responses cover the points I am making?

I thought you wanted to discuss the roots and reasons for the existence of evil?

Instead, you offer me silly little strawman arguments.

For crying out loud, bahman, put some thought and effort into your replies!
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:51 pm I am trying to discuss the problem of evil in Christianity as it is pointed out in my OP. You are free to read it and we can start from scratch. Are you a Christian? Do you believe in verses of Genises literally?
What is it about this statement I made in a prior post...
seeds wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:59 pm By the way, the Adam and Eve story is nothing more than mythological fantasy.
...that seems ambiguous to you and causes you to assume that I believe in the verses of Genesis literally?

Do you even read my posts in their entirety? Or do you just skim over them?
_______
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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

seeds wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:13 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:35 pm Think of killing. It is evil. But think of a person who lives with locked-in syndrome. Killing him/her is allowed if he/she wants it. So you see that evil is permissible sometimes.
seeds wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:43 pm Do you actually think that your little "Twitteresque" length responses cover the points I am making?

I thought you wanted to discuss the roots and reasons for the existence of evil?

Instead, you offer me silly little strawman arguments.

For crying out loud, bahman, put some thought and effort into your replies!
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:51 pm I am trying to discuss the problem of evil in Christianity as it is pointed out in my OP. You are free to read it and we can start from scratch. Are you a Christian? Do you believe in verses of Genises literally?
What is it about this statement I made in a prior post...
seeds wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:59 pm By the way, the Adam and Eve story is nothing more than mythological fantasy.
...that seems ambiguous to you and causes you to assume that I believe in the verses of Genesis literally?

Do you even read my posts in their entirety? Or do you just skim over them?
_______
I read your post. I just wanted to tell you what is the main subject of discussion. Of course, you are welcome to discuss your view about the problem of evil in this thread too. Regarding the problem of evil in your view, I would like to ask whether you believe that this world is the creation of God?
DPMartin
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by DPMartin »

bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:18 pm
But you forgot to read the rest: Gen3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. Gen 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.


hence she believed and trusted something other than God's Word in reference to God's Word, didn't she. all have the capability to believe and trust, so there is no excuse. no body made her believe and or trust what the serpent said, did they?

you step out in front of a beer truck of your own volition, doesn't matter why, doesn't even matter who's fault, or talked you into it, you're still dead. you suffer the consequence. of which there is deliverance from.
seeds
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by seeds »

bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:38 pm I read your post. I just wanted to tell you what is the main subject of discussion.
I understand that.

However, in your OP, you asked the following question (underlining/bolding mine)...
bahman wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm 1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
...to which I am simply offering what I feel is a plausible (and contemporary) answer to your question.
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:38 pm Of course, you are welcome to discuss your view about the problem of evil in this thread too. Regarding the problem of evil in your view, I would like to ask whether you believe that this world is the creation of God?
Not only do I believe that our particular universe is a creation of God, but that all of its phenomenal features are created from the living fabric of God's personal being.

What in the world do you think I am implying in the illustrations I have flooded the forum with over the years?

For example, this one...

Image

So, yes, I firmly believe that our universe is the creation of an extremely advanced (Berkeleyan-ish) Entity in whose Mind the universe resides. and that our minds are "created in the image" of this higher Entity, as is suggested in Christian metaphysics (and in the above illustration).

What's your point in asking?
_______
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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

DPMartin wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:30 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:18 pm
But you forgot to read the rest: Gen3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. Gen 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.


hence she believed and trusted something other than God's Word in reference to God's Word, didn't she. all have the capability to believe and trust, so there is no excuse. no body made her believe and or trust what the serpent said, did they?

you step out in front of a beer truck of your own volition, doesn't matter why, doesn't even matter who's fault, or talked you into it, you're still dead. you suffer the consequence. of which there is deliverance from.
But what God promised, dying on the same day you eat the fruit, didn't happen. Instead, God sent them to the cursed land. So it seems that everything depended on God. So it was not simply receiving the consequence of your act but a punishment from God. But why God did punish them knowing that Eve was naive and deceived?
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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 3:21 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:38 pm I read your post. I just wanted to tell you what is the main subject of discussion.
I understand that.

However, in your OP, you asked the following question (underlining/bolding mine)...
bahman wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm 1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
...to which I am simply offering what I feel is a plausible (and contemporary) answer to your question.
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:38 pm Of course, you are welcome to discuss your view about the problem of evil in this thread too. Regarding the problem of evil in your view, I would like to ask whether you believe that this world is the creation of God?
Not only do I believe that our particular universe is a creation of God, but that all of its phenomenal features are created from the living fabric of God's personal being.

What in the world do you think I am implying in the illustrations I have flooded the forum with over the years?

For example, this one...

Image

So, yes, I firmly believe that our universe is the creation of an extremely advanced (Berkeleyan-ish) Entity in whose Mind the universe resides. and that our minds are "created in the image" of this higher Entity, as is suggested in Christian metaphysics (and in the above illustration).

What's your point in asking?
_______
You mentioned that evil is due to a low level of consciousness. Couldn't God create us in a higher form of consciousness so there would be no evil?
seeds
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by seeds »

bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 3:36 pm
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 3:21 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:38 pm I read your post. I just wanted to tell you what is the main subject of discussion.
I understand that.

However, in your OP, you asked the following question (underlining/bolding mine)...
bahman wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm 1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
...to which I am simply offering what I feel is a plausible (and contemporary) answer to your question.
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:38 pm Of course, you are welcome to discuss your view about the problem of evil in this thread too. Regarding the problem of evil in your view, I would like to ask whether you believe that this world is the creation of God?
Not only do I believe that our particular universe is a creation of God, but that all of its phenomenal features are created from the living fabric of God's personal being.

What in the world do you think I am implying in the illustrations I have flooded the forum with over the years?

For example, this one...

Image

So, yes, I firmly believe that our universe is the creation of an extremely advanced (Berkeleyan-ish) Entity in whose Mind the universe resides. and that our minds are "created in the image" of this higher Entity, as is suggested in Christian metaphysics (and in the above illustration).

What's your point in asking?
_______
You mentioned that evil is due to a low level of consciousness. Couldn't God create us in a higher form of consciousness so there would be no evil?
Do you actually think that a living Entity who is capable of creating a hundred-billion galaxies of suns and planets...

(out of the living fabric of its very own being)

...is incapable of understanding the necessary level of consciousness that its embryonic offspring need to function at in order for their temporary (and bizarre) setting to feel "logical and natural" to them?

As a metaphorical comparison, should a human fetus who is momentarily trapped within the darkness of its mother's womb, function at a higher level of consciousness to where it understands what resides on the other side of its mother's abdominal wall, yet has no way of accessing that outer reality until it is finally born into it after 9 months?

Well, I suggest that we are in a similar situation relative to God.
_______
DPMartin
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by DPMartin »

bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 3:31 pm
DPMartin wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:30 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:18 pm
But you forgot to read the rest: Gen3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. Gen 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.


hence she believed and trusted something other than God's Word in reference to God's Word, didn't she. all have the capability to believe and trust, so there is no excuse. no body made her believe and or trust what the serpent said, did they?

you step out in front of a beer truck of your own volition, doesn't matter why, doesn't even matter who's fault, or talked you into it, you're still dead. you suffer the consequence. of which there is deliverance from.
But what God promised, dying on the same day you eat the fruit, didn't happen. Instead, God sent them to the cursed land. So it seems that everything depended on God. So it was not simply receiving the consequence of your act but a punishment from God. But why God did punish them knowing that Eve was naive and deceived?
if you're looking for blame, look in the mirror. you agreed to live the life you are living by virtue that you are living it.
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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 4:17 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 3:36 pm
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 3:21 pm
I understand that.

However, in your OP, you asked the following question (underlining/bolding mine)...

...to which I am simply offering what I feel is a plausible (and contemporary) answer to your question.


Not only do I believe that our particular universe is a creation of God, but that all of its phenomenal features are created from the living fabric of God's personal being.

What in the world do you think I am implying in the illustrations I have flooded the forum with over the years?

For example, this one...

Image

So, yes, I firmly believe that our universe is the creation of an extremely advanced (Berkeleyan-ish) Entity in whose Mind the universe resides. and that our minds are "created in the image" of this higher Entity, as is suggested in Christian metaphysics (and in the above illustration).

What's your point in asking?
_______
You mentioned that evil is due to a low level of consciousness. Couldn't God create us in a higher form of consciousness so there would be no evil?
Do you actually think that a living Entity who is capable of creating a hundred-billion galaxies of suns and planets...

(out of the living fabric of its very own being)

...is incapable of understanding the necessary level of consciousness that its embryonic offspring need to function at in order for their temporary (and bizarre) setting to feel "logical and natural" to them?

As a metaphorical comparison, should a human fetus who is momentarily trapped within the darkness of its mother's womb, function at a higher level of consciousness to where it understands what resides on the other side of its mother's abdominal wall, yet has no way of accessing that outer reality until it is finally born into it after 9 months?

Well, I suggest that we are in a similar situation relative to God.
_______
I understand what is your model of reality is. You however didn't answer my question: Couldn't God create us in a higher form of consciousness so there would be no evil?
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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

DPMartin wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:30 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 3:31 pm
DPMartin wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:30 pm


hence she believed and trusted something other than God's Word in reference to God's Word, didn't she. all have the capability to believe and trust, so there is no excuse. no body made her believe and or trust what the serpent said, did they?

you step out in front of a beer truck of your own volition, doesn't matter why, doesn't even matter who's fault, or talked you into it, you're still dead. you suffer the consequence. of which there is deliverance from.
But what God promised, dying on the same day you eat the fruit, didn't happen. Instead, God sent them to the cursed land. So it seems that everything depended on God. So it was not simply receiving the consequence of your act but a punishment from God. But why God did punish them knowing that Eve was naive and deceived?
if you're looking for blame, look in the mirror. you agreed to live the life you are living by virtue that you are living it.
I agreed by nothing.
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henry quirk
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by henry quirk »

It is a matter of respecting yourself when you know something is right and submit to it.
I don't give two shits if the slaver, the murderer, the rapist, or the thief self-respects or not.

Ideally: I want him to respect my right to my life, liberty, and property and keep his hands to himself.

Practically (and in the absence of respect): I want him to understand his life is forfeit should he, for whatever reason, conclude what's mine is his to control or take as his own.
We need to educate people from childhood to respect themselves and act according to what they think is right.
No, we need to...

1-put an end to an educational system that simultaneously domesticates while encouragin' all manner of disturbed and dehumanizin' behavior.

2-put an end to The State which encourages men to indulge what Bastiat called man's fatal tendency.

Plainly, we still got a ways to go before either is a possibility (much less a probability).
DPMartin
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by DPMartin »

bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:59 pm
DPMartin wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:30 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 3:31 pm
But what God promised, dying on the same day you eat the fruit, didn't happen. Instead, God sent them to the cursed land. So it seems that everything depended on God. So it was not simply receiving the consequence of your act but a punishment from God. But why God did punish them knowing that Eve was naive and deceived?
if you're looking for blame, look in the mirror. you agreed to live the life you are living by virtue that you are living it.
I agreed by nothing.
you kept telling yourself that

descent subject, by the way
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