The problem of evil

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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bahman
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The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

I create this thread in order to discuss the problem of evil with Immanuel Can. Others also are welcome to participate.

The discussion can be divided into three parts: 1) Origin of Evil, 2) Deception of Eve and her punishment, and 3) Natural Evil.

1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment: Why did God punish a naive person who was deceived?
3) Natural Evil: Why do we suffer for the sins of others (Adam and Eve)?
DPMartin
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by DPMartin »

bahman wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm I create this thread in order to discuss the problem of evil with Immanuel Can. Others also are welcome to participate.

The discussion can be divided into three parts: 1) Origin of Evil, 2) Deception of Eve and her punishment, and 3) Natural Evil.

1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment: Why did God punish a naive person who was deceived?
3) Natural Evil: Why do we suffer for the sins of others (Adam and Eve)?
the rest of the story tells you if you read it.

God is not only the Creator but also the Judge therefore the Judge of what is good or evil for His creation and the creatures therein, no exceptions.

what happened in the garden is Eve made a judgement contrary to God's Judgement and Adam followed.

therefore man now goes by his own judgement of good and evil, but again man's judgement results in death, because God's Judgement is Life so any other judgement wouldn't not be life.


also there is the concept of morals here do to the commandment God spoke to Adam was a covenant, or a agreement. Adam can hang in the garden and live the life Adam received from God, as long as no eat from TOK. note there's no protest on Adam's part mentioned. Adam wasn't made in the garden, Adam was made, then put in the garden.

hence the agreement God made with Adam, and was merciful to let A&E to live the life in and of the flesh as animals do, and they lost the Life (for the record) Jesus, the Son of God, restored to the faithful.

so the reason why for all this is Adam was to be a son of God, possessing God's place in the earth, earth being God's footstool. and in that place they were to execute God's Judgements in the earth.

so the sin in this case is really separation from God's Presence, or the state of it, and that life A&E were left with you have received when you were born into the world, hence the term original sin.

but the case is really about who is the judge of good and evil. also in our case the place that is man in creation is the place for Light, and not darkness, and you know man walks in darkness therefore that along is evil simply because that isn't how God originally made it, as you've said God made everything good He declared it good, very good. so man is the place for God's Judgements of what is good and evil, not man's.
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henry quirk
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by henry quirk »

bahman wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm I create this thread in order to discuss the problem of evil with Immanuel Can. Others also are welcome to participate.

The discussion can be divided into three parts: 1) Origin of Evil, 2) Deception of Eve and her punishment, and 3) Natural Evil.

1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment: Why did God punish a naive person who was deceived?
3) Natural Evil: Why do we suffer for the sins of others (Adam and Eve)?
I have some thoughts on this stuff, but you've framed it in a Christian/theist theme. Is a deist allowed to post?
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iambiguous
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:40 pm
bahman wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm I create this thread in order to discuss the problem of evil with Immanuel Can. Others also are welcome to participate.

The discussion can be divided into three parts: 1) Origin of Evil, 2) Deception of Eve and her punishment, and 3) Natural Evil.

1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment: Why did God punish a naive person who was deceived?
3) Natural Evil: Why do we suffer for the sins of others (Adam and Eve)?
I have some thoughts on this stuff, but you've framed it in a Christian/theist theme. Is a deist allowed to post?

I certainly agree that a deist ought to be permitted to post.

And of the deists/deists, I would ask this:

Is your God omniscient and omnipotent? And, if so, back to this:

"Why did the Deist/deist God bring into existence a planet that sustains an endless flow of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires? Why did He bring into existence deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages?"

Though, if your God is not omniscient and omnipotent, then, okay, I guess He's off the hook. He created planet Earth -- and nature and the laws of matter -- but then went on to other...tasks?

For me the problem of evil in regard to God and religion would seem to revolve around an assumption that some make that given all of these ghastly, grim, gruesome things that God did bring into existence, why is it not reasonable to suggest that He is evil? In fact, given the world as it is, why is it unreasonable to suggest that God is a sadistic monster?

Here, it seems, the only reasonable explanation might be that of Rabbi Harold Kushner. That God is indeed loving, just and merciful. But He is not omnipotent. He set things into motion but then it all got beyond His control.
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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

DPMartin wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:04 pm
bahman wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm I create this thread in order to discuss the problem of evil with Immanuel Can. Others also are welcome to participate.

The discussion can be divided into three parts: 1) Origin of Evil, 2) Deception of Eve and her punishment, and 3) Natural Evil.

1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment: Why did God punish a naive person who was deceived?
3) Natural Evil: Why do we suffer for the sins of others (Adam and Eve)?
the rest of the story tells you if you read it.

God is not only the Creator but also the Judge therefore the Judge of what is good or evil for His creation and the creatures therein, no exceptions.
So God creates situation in which a person can commit evil so he can judge him? If yes, isn't God the origin of evil?
DPMartin wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:04 pm what happened in the garden is Eve made a judgment contrary to God's Judgement and Adam followed.
Eve was naive and was deceived. There was the problem of temptation too, the fruit looked tempting. She has to fight the temptation forever. We all know that it is impossible to ignore a temptation forever.
DPMartin wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:04 pm therefore man now goes by his own judgement of good and evil, but again man's judgement results in death, because God's Judgement is Life so any other judgement wouldn't not be life.


also there is the concept of morals here do to the commandment God spoke to Adam was a covenant, or a agreement. Adam can hang in the garden and live the life Adam received from God, as long as no eat from TOK. note there's no protest on Adam's part mentioned. Adam wasn't made in the garden, Adam was made, then put in the garden.

hence the agreement God made with Adam, and was merciful to let A&E to live the life in and of the flesh as animals do, and they lost the Life (for the record) Jesus, the Son of God, restored to the faithful.

so the reason why for all this is Adam was to be a son of God, possessing God's place in the earth, earth being God's footstool. and in that place they were to execute God's Judgements in the earth.

so the sin in this case is really separation from God's Presence, or the state of it, and that life A&E were left with you have received when you were born into the world, hence the term original sin.
Why we are kept in such a state? We don't keep people responsible for the fault of others.
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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:40 pm
bahman wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm I create this thread in order to discuss the problem of evil with Immanuel Can. Others also are welcome to participate.

The discussion can be divided into three parts: 1) Origin of Evil, 2) Deception of Eve and her punishment, and 3) Natural Evil.

1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment: Why did God punish a naive person who was deceived?
3) Natural Evil: Why do we suffer for the sins of others (Adam and Eve)?
I have some thoughts on this stuff, but you've framed it in a Christian/theist theme. Is a deist allowed to post?
Sure, Henry. Your feedback is welcomed.
popeye1945
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by popeye1945 »

The term evil is loaded with antiquated religious meaning that is not relative to intelligence and/or critical thinking. Heraclitus, " To god all things are right and good, only to man, somethings are and somethings are not." Shakespeare, " There is no such thing as right or wrong, only thinking makes it so." There are bad things that undermine the life and good things that are supportive of life.
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henry quirk
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by henry quirk »

Sure, Henry. Your feedback is welcomed.
👍
if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
The problem of evil is rooted in free will. Man chooses. He chooses to -- as I've said (5000 times accordin' to the absent lacewing) -- to recognize and respect the life, liberty, and property of his fellows, or he chooses to violate the life, liberty, and property of his fellows.

God, best I can tell, is absent or indifferent. He Created, set in motion, then withdrew. Some lay blame on Him for evil, but this is nonsense. If I choose to slave, to murder, to rape, to rob, how is God responsible? No, I am responsible.
Natural Evil
You refer to natural disasters, yes? These are not evil. I live in S. Louisiana. Hurricanes are a normal, seasonal, feature in these parts. I've been thru several. There is nuthin' evil about a hurricane: it possesses no will, no intent, no purpose. It chooses nuthin'. It is an amoral confluence of forces. Some lay blame for hurricanes and earthquakes and droughts and disease on God, but this too is nonsense. God Created, set into motion, the withdrew. It does not seem to me He meticulously planned out events but rather lay out initial conditions only (and may be as much in the dark about what comes tomorrow as you or me)

How do you know any of this, Henry?

I don't.

As I say elsewhere...

I know I am a free will with a right to my life, liberty, and property. I recognize other men are free wills with a right to their lives, liberties, and properties. I surmise a Prime Mover is responsible for the whole schmear.

The first two are the basis of morality (right & wrong, good & evil): the third is just guesswork.
jayjacobus
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by jayjacobus »

bahman wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm I create this thread in order to discuss the problem of evil with Immanuel Can. Others also are welcome to participate.

The discussion can be divided into three parts: 1) Origin of Evil, 2) Deception of Eve and her punishment, and 3) Natural Evil.

1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment: Why did God punish a naive person who was deceived?
3) Natural Evil: Why do we suffer for the sins of others (Adam and Eve)?
1) Evil comes from man's animal nature. In order to live man must respond to his physical needs. How he does that can be wicked.

2) The Garden of Eden was not a reward nor a punishment for Eve. Outside the Garden of Eden there is good fortune, plenty and ordeals. Good fortune, plenty and ordeals do not mean evil.

3) We do not atone for the sins of Adam and Eve. We are only judged for our own sins.
Last edited by jayjacobus on Sun May 22, 2022 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
seeds
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by seeds »

bahman wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm I create this thread in order to discuss the problem of evil...
Here's my illustrated take on the so-called "problem of evil":

(Note: If the print is too small or too blurry to read, you can see it more clearly if you click on the following link where the images are located on my website - http://theultimateseeds.com/darknessofthewomb.htm)

ImageImageImage

The bottom line is that there is no such "thing" as Evil as if it were some sort of tangible substance that you can step in and can't get off your shoe, or is often personified in the form of a devil :twisted: or demons.

No, all evil is (or ever was) is the result of low human consciousness.
_______
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iambiguous
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 2:27 am The problem of evil is rooted in free will. Man chooses.
Yes, there's that aspect of evil. Which I root subjectively, existentially in dasein, and Henry roots in his God providing us with the capacity to "follow the dictates of Reason and Nature". In other words, to think exactly like Henry does about Good and Evil.
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 2:27 amGod, best I can tell, is absent or indifferent. He Created, set in motion, then withdrew. Some lay blame on Him for evil, but this is nonsense. If I choose to slave, to murder, to rape, to rob, how is God responsible? No, I am responsible.
See what I mean? He admits flat out that "as best he can tell", what he thinks about God "in his head" here and now "seems" true. He doesn't know anything for sure though. But if others suggest that only an evil entity would create what ironically we call "acts of God" down here on Earth, that's unequivocally nonsense. How does he demonstrate this? He doesn't. He merely asserts it. If one of us mere mortals created the conditions that brought about "an endless flow of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical afflictions and extinction events" making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages, wouldn't most call him or her evil? So, it is argued by some, how is a God, the God bringing it about not evil?

That's precisely why Rabbi Kushner became famous for explaining to us why bad things happen to good people. It's because his God is good...but not omnipotent.

Of course, for Henry, he's got an out here. His God created planet Earth the way it is, but then withdrew. So, who the hell really knows for sure what He was thinking? With IC's Christian God, however, evil becomes a whole other ballgame. He did not withdraw. In fact, he provides us with a Scripture and Commandments. We read it and follow them or on Judgment Day...

Just no Judgment Day for the Christian God Himself. Instead, we mere mortals simply cannot grasp His "mysterious ways".
trokanmariel
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by trokanmariel »

The history truth exempt from theories of mind apparatus, Mason Dertry's physics = philosophy game of psychology, invented before the creation of evolution, is a time concentration creator of Thomas Heath's preoccupation with the game of projection onto page (of writing is from sex meta alliance - a Lia Haddock from Limetown and Megan Fox from JB's kitchen reference), of the details that Angela Bennett's typing master is over writing through top hat aristocrat's Kelly Brook's heel sex marriage to Thomas Heath.

The details, within this composition:
left-wing transcendence's role to play, within the game, of Kelly Brook's heel sex marriage to Thomas Heath, being the physics of the universe due to The Symmetry's refusal to intervene in mutual awareness ideology's misuse of call to help, especially of the James Caan - Paul Sheldon espionage work - You sick, twisted fuck-ideology possession by God's/Peek-A-Boo's inability to copy Mason Dertry's game of psychology, is waiting for the Kelly Brook BOSS as face as meta revelation by Kelly Brook's top hat aristocrat from before the universe, and meta
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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 2:27 am
Sure, Henry. Your feedback is welcomed.
👍
if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
The problem of evil is rooted in free will. Man chooses. He chooses to -- as I've said (5000 times accordin' to the absent lacewing) -- to recognize and respect the life, liberty, and property of his fellows, or he chooses to violate the life, liberty, and property of his fellows.

God, best I can tell, is absent or indifferent. He Created, set in motion, then withdrew. Some lay blame on Him for evil, but this is nonsense. If I choose to slave, to murder, to rape, to rob, how is God responsible? No, I am responsible.
Natural Evil
You refer to natural disasters, yes? These are not evil. I live in S. Louisiana. Hurricanes are a normal, seasonal, feature in these parts. I've been thru several. There is nuthin' evil about a hurricane: it possesses no will, no intent, no purpose. It chooses nuthin'. It is an amoral confluence of forces. Some lay blame for hurricanes and earthquakes and droughts and disease on God, but this too is nonsense. God Created, set into motion, the withdrew. It does not seem to me He meticulously planned out events but rather lay out initial conditions only (and may be as much in the dark about what comes tomorrow as you or me)

How do you know any of this, Henry?

I don't.

As I say elsewhere...

I know I am a free will with a right to my life, liberty, and property. I recognize other men are free wills with a right to their lives, liberties, and properties. I surmise a Prime Mover is responsible for the whole schmear.

The first two are the basis of morality (right & wrong, good & evil): the third is just guesswork.
If God is all-wise and omniscient choosing to be indifferent then man also will choose to be indifferent when he is wise enough. That means no difference between good and evil whatsoever for wise people as well. Who cares, lets stupid people struggle until the end of time. What is the point of education then?
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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 12:27 am The term evil is loaded with antiquated religious meaning that is not relative to intelligence and/or critical thinking. Heraclitus, " To god all things are right and good, only to man, somethings are and somethings are not." Shakespeare, " There is no such thing as right or wrong, only thinking makes it so." There are bad things that undermine the life and good things that are supportive of life.
Then let's beat both to death.
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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

seeds wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 3:45 pm
bahman wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm I create this thread in order to discuss the problem of evil...
Here's my illustrated take on the so-called "problem of evil":

(Note: If the print is too small or too blurry to read, you can see it more clearly if you click on the following link where the images are located on my website - http://theultimateseeds.com/darknessofthewomb.htm)

ImageImageImage

The bottom line is that there is no such "thing" as Evil as if it were some sort of tangible substance that you can step in and can't get off your shoe, or is often personified in the form of a devil :twisted: or demons.

No, all evil is (or ever was) is the result of low human consciousness.
_______
That is at best a claim. What if I claim that good is the result of low human consciousness. The person who is all-wise has the right to be a good racist. Why he should listen to anyone? Why he should equate himself/herself to others?
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