The problem of evil

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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seeds
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by seeds »

bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:31 pm I understand what is your model of reality is.
I highly doubt that. Nevertheless, carry on.
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:31 pm You however didn't answer my question: Couldn't God create us in a higher form of consciousness so there would be no evil?
I did answer your question.

However, I guess I answered it in a way that you cannot seem to understand.

So, let me try a different approach.

I have written in many threads that it is imperative that God, and our ultimate and eternal form and purpose, remain hidden from us until death so that we are not tempted or compelled to seek it out prematurely.

In which case, the existence of evil is one of the primary ways that helps to keep God (and the truth of our ultimate destiny) hidden from us. And that's because it makes humans doubt that a loving Creator could exist and at the same time not do something about the "problem of evil."

Thus, we are able to stay focused on our "down-to-earth" job of making and raising babies without being distracted by any sort of definitive knowledge of the existence of the higher (and more wonderful) context of reality that awaits us following the death of our body.

Just out of curiosity, what are the evil aspects of this world that you think God should eliminate?
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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 6:43 pm
It is a matter of respecting yourself when you know something is right and submit to it.
I don't give two shits if the slaver, the murderer, the rapist, or the thief self-respects or not.

Ideally: I want him to respect my right to my life, liberty, and property and keep his hands to himself.
But they don't respect your right. So how you are going to resolve the problem. Killing them?
henry quirk wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 6:43 pm Practically (and in the absence of respect): I want him to understand his life is forfeit should he, for whatever reason, conclude what's mine is his to control or take as his own.
And how you are trying to make him understand that his life is forfeit?
henry quirk wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 6:43 pm
We need to educate people from childhood to respect themselves and act according to what they think is right.
No, we need to...

1-put an end to an educational system that simultaneously domesticates while encouragin' all manner of disturbed and dehumanizin' behavior.

2-put an end to The State which encourages men to indulge what Bastiat called man's fatal tendency.

Plainly, we still got a ways to go before either is a possibility (much less a probability).
Educating children to choose and do what is right is not dehumanizing.
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

DPMartin wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:16 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:59 pm
DPMartin wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:30 pm

if you're looking for blame, look in the mirror. you agreed to live the life you are living by virtue that you are living it.
I agreed by nothing.
you kept telling yourself that

descent subject, by the way
So you fail to answer why I have to live in the falling world.
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bahman
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:31 pm I understand what is your model of reality is.
I highly doubt that. Nevertheless, carry on.
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:31 pm You however didn't answer my question: Couldn't God create us in a higher form of consciousness so there would be no evil?
I did answer your question.

However, I guess I answered it in a way that you cannot seem to understand.

So, let me try a different approach.

I have written in many threads that it is imperative that God, and our ultimate and eternal form and purpose, remain hidden from us until death so that we are not tempted or compelled to seek it out prematurely.
Where did you take that from? There is no mystery in here. Your God is Omniscient and Omnipotent. He could create a perfect world. Instead, He prefers to leave us in a state of ignorance until death by creating an imperfect world for a purpose that we should not know. I call this nonsense.
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm In which case, the existence of evil is one of the primary ways that helps to keep God (and the truth of our ultimate destiny) hidden from us. And that's because it makes humans doubt that a loving Creator could exist and at the same time not do something about the "problem of evil."
So you agree that God is responsible for the existence of evil?
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm Thus, we are able to stay focused on our "down-to-earth" job of making and raising babies without being distracted by any sort of definitive knowledge of the existence of the higher (and more wonderful) context of reality that awaits us following the death of our body.
So there is a purpose, a mystery that you don't know.
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm Just out of curiosity, what are the evil aspects of this world that you think God should eliminate?
_______
Well, all forms of evil. That is a necessary thing to be done by a good God.
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by seeds »

seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm I have written in many threads that it is imperative that God, and our ultimate and eternal form and purpose, remain hidden from us until death so that we are not tempted or compelled to seek it out prematurely.
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm Where did you take that from?
What makes you think I took it from somewhere?

Are you under the impression that none of us can come up with a new and original idea?
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm There is no mystery in here. Your God is Omniscient and Omnipotent.
Contrary to what you stated earlier,...
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:31 pm I understand what is your model of reality is.
...you are now proving to me that you don't have the slightest clue as to what my theory entails.

Stop assuming stuff.
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm He could create a perfect world. Instead, He prefers to leave us in a state of ignorance until death by creating an imperfect world for a purpose that we should not know. I call this nonsense.
He (she/it) has indeed created the perfect world. You are just not conscious enough to realize it.
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm In which case, the existence of evil is one of the primary ways that helps to keep God (and the truth of our ultimate destiny) hidden from us. And that's because it makes humans doubt that a loving Creator could exist and at the same time not do something about the "problem of evil."
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm So you agree that God is responsible for the existence of evil?
Yes!
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm Just out of curiosity, what are the evil aspects of this world that you think God should eliminate?
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm Well, all forms of evil. That is a necessary thing to be done by a good God.
Try to do some critical thinking on this issue. First of all...
  • 1. That which was "evil" for the dinosaurs (an asteroid impact) was "good" for the flourishing of mammals such as us.

    2. That which is "evil" for the gazelle (the fangs and claws of a lion) is "good" for the lion's survival.

    3. That which is "evil" for humans (devastating river floods) is "good" for replenishing nutrients in the soil.
And that list could go on and on.

So, come on now, bahman, name for us a few of the specific evils that you think God should eliminate, instead of your broad declaration that all forms of evil must be done away with.
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henry quirk
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by henry quirk »

Educating children to choose and do what is right is not dehumanizing.
Well, that depends on who is doin' the educatin', and how the educatin' is bein' done, yeah?
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by attofishpi »

seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:40 pm
  • 1. That which was "evil" for the dinosaurs (an asteroid impact) was "good" for the flourishing of mammals such as us.

    2. That which is "evil" for the gazelle (the fangs and claws of a lion) is "good" for the lion's survival.

    3. That which is "evil" for humans (devastating river floods) is "good" for replenishing nutrients in the soil.
And that list could go on and on.
I don't agree that natural causes, such as a flood or meteor impact are evil. For me, evil must have a conscious intent to do harm.
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by seeds »

attofishpi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:56 am
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:40 pm
  • 1. That which was "evil" for the dinosaurs (an asteroid impact) was "good" for the flourishing of mammals such as us.

    2. That which is "evil" for the gazelle (the fangs and claws of a lion) is "good" for the lion's survival.

    3. That which is "evil" for humans (devastating river floods) is "good" for replenishing nutrients in the soil.
And that list could go on and on.
I don't agree that natural causes, such as a flood or meteor impact are evil. For me, evil must have a conscious intent to do harm.
I'm just trying to cover all the bases with bahman.

The word evil has several connotations.

In Googling the word "evil," the second word in the row of synonyms for evil is the word "bad"...
bad
adjective
2. not such as to be hoped for or desired; unpleasant or unwelcome...
I'm pretty sure that if you were to ask a T-Rex about the matter, then just before eating you, he would say that being annihilated by an asteroid would be bad (unpleasant/unwelcome).

But yeah, I get where you're coming from.

With that being said, how do you feel about a country's soldiers who are filled with the conscious intent to harm others? Indeed, oftentimes raping, torturing, and murdering women and children in other countries, yet come back home hailed as heroes.

Where does your definition of evil fit in with that scenario?
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by attofishpi »

seeds wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:58 am With that being said, how do you feel about a country's soldiers who are filled with the conscious intent to harm others? Indeed, oftentimes raping, torturing, and murdering women and children in other countries, yet come back home hailed as heroes.

Where does your definition of evil fit in with that scenario?
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Yes, those soldiers committed evil acts. For me, wo/men can be evil, but a volcano cannot be evil!
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:40 pm
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm I have written in many threads that it is imperative that God, and our ultimate and eternal form and purpose, remain hidden from us until death so that we are not tempted or compelled to seek it out prematurely.
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm Where did you take that from?
What makes you think I took it from somewhere?

Are you under the impression that none of us can come up with a new and original idea?
So you are not Christian?

seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:40 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm There is no mystery in here. Your God is Omniscient and Omnipotent.
Contrary to what you stated earlier,...
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:31 pm I understand what is your model of reality is.
...you are now proving to me that you don't have the slightest clue as to what my theory entails.

Stop assuming stuff.
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm He could create a perfect world. Instead, He prefers to leave us in a state of ignorance until death by creating an imperfect world for a purpose that we should not know. I call this nonsense.
He (she/it) has indeed created the perfect world. You are just not conscious enough to realize it.
The fact that we are not conscious enough means that the world He created is not perfect.

seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:40 pm
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm In which case, the existence of evil is one of the primary ways that helps to keep God (and the truth of our ultimate destiny) hidden from us. And that's because it makes humans doubt that a loving Creator could exist and at the same time not do something about the "problem of evil."
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm So you agree that God is responsible for the existence of evil?
Yes!
So, you have no right to complain about evil. Correct?
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:40 pm
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm Just out of curiosity, what are the evil aspects of this world that you think God should eliminate?
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm Well, all forms of evil. That is a necessary thing to be done by a good God.
Try to do some critical thinking on this issue. First of all...
  • 1. That which was "evil" for the dinosaurs (an asteroid impact) was "good" for the flourishing of mammals such as us.

    2. That which is "evil" for the gazelle (the fangs and claws of a lion) is "good" for the lion's survival.

    3. That which is "evil" for humans (devastating river floods) is "good" for replenishing nutrients in the soil.
And that list could go on and on.

So, come on now, bahman, name for us a few of the specific evils that you think God should eliminate, instead of your broad declaration that all forms of evil must be done away with.
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All forms of evil.
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:36 am
Educating children to choose and do what is right is not dehumanizing.
Well, that depends on who is doin' the educatin', and how the educatin' is bein' done, yeah?
Sure. To respect the right of others is the basic education.
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by henry quirk »

bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:17 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:36 am
Educating children to choose and do what is right is not dehumanizing.
Well, that depends on who is doin' the educatin', and how the educatin' is bein' done, yeah?
Sure. To respect the right of others is the basic education.
Then: why aren't we doin' that?
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by seeds »

attofishpi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:14 am
seeds wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:58 am With that being said, how do you feel about a country's soldiers who are filled with the conscious intent to harm others? Indeed, oftentimes raping, torturing, and murdering women and children in other countries, yet come back home hailed as heroes.

Where does your definition of evil fit in with that scenario?
_______
Yes, those soldiers committed evil acts.
Yet, we have the irony of these brutal and savage murderers of innocent men, women, and children being celebrated as heroes.

And that's where I am suggesting that "low consciousness" enters into the picture.

I mean, try to imagine what a low (animal-like) state of consciousness one must be functioning at to think that it was okay to rape and slaughter these innocent women and children...

Image

...in the event known as the "My Lai massacre."

And the point is that "low consciousness" not only applies to the brainwashed soldiers that perpetrated such a heinous act, but also to a country's populace who turn a blind eye to the evil that their soldiers commit on their behalf.
attofishpi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:14 am For me, wo/men can be evil, but a volcano cannot be evil!
Yes, it is ludicrous to think of a volcano (or an earthquake, or a hurricane, etc.) as being evil.

However, what people like bahman seem to be implying is that if God truly exists, then it is evil of God to have created such phenomena, because they can cause harm to humans.

So, that (in my opinion) is how the notion of evilness gets associated with the dangerous features of the natural world.

And that's also why I'm trying to get bahman to clarify his stance by naming a few of the specific evil aspects of the world that he thinks God should eliminate.
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:08 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:17 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:36 am

Well, that depends on who is doin' the educatin', and how the educatin' is bein' done, yeah?
Sure. To respect the right of others is the basic education.
Then: why aren't we doin' that?
I don't know. It is more important than physics, chemistry, etc.
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Re: The problem of evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm The discussion can be divided into three parts:
1) Origin of Evil,
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment, and
3) Natural Evil.

1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment: Why did God punish a naive person who was deceived?
3) Natural Evil: Why do we suffer for the sins of others (Adam and Eve)?
This discussion will get entangled in a mess when you have not specifically define what is evil.

Regardless of whatever the origin of evil, we need a Definition of Evil, which is;
What is good is not-evil.
What is evil is any act or thoughts of agency that is a net-negative to the well-being of the individual and to humanity towards the preservation of the human species.


Generally the Problem of Evil is,
  • 1. God is defined as an agent that is omni-whatever [in favor of God] and that includes omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omni-compassion, omni-empathic.
    If God exists as real with above qualities, then the omnipotent God will not allow or will prevent evil to emerge in reality.

    2. The reality is, the acts of evil [by the supposed God and humans] occur and had happened and will happen in the future.

    3. Therefore God cannot exists as real, otherwise 2 would not be a reality
This is precisely the problem of evil as commonly posited by non-theists.

There is no need to discuss other matters, e.g. point 1, 2 and 3 above which should be raised as separate topics.
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