The problem of evil

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
seeds
Posts: 2143
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by seeds »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am Generally the Problem of Evil is,
  • 1. God is defined as an agent that is omni-whatever [in favor of God] and that includes omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omni-compassion, omni-empathic.
    If God exists as real with above qualities, then the omnipotent God will not allow or will prevent evil to emerge in reality.
...OR...

...an omnipotent (and "All-Knowing") Being, might actually have a logical reason for allowing evil to exist.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am
  • 2. The reality is, the acts of evil [by the supposed God and humans] occur and had happened and will happen in the future.
True!
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am
  • 3. Therefore God cannot exists as real, otherwise 2 would not be a reality
False!

You are the equivalent of an "amoeba" (who doesn't realize he's an amoeba) trying to analyze the ontological status and motives of the creator of your petri dish.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am This is precisely the problem of evil as commonly posited by non-theists.
There is no "problem of evil."

The universe is operating according to design.
_______
promethean75
Posts: 4931
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by promethean75 »

"an omnipotent (and "All-Knowing") Being, might actually have a logical reason for allowing evil to exist."

Of course, but the logical conflict is this: if god is, as stated, 'omnipotent' - which means able to do and/or make happen whatever is logically possible (circulatory there, btw) - he should be able to achieve the same result, the same end(s), without including the existence of 'evil' at all.

In different words, whatever it is that god is doing, it must either include that evil, in which case god and the plan permits it on purpose, or it didn't have to include that evil, but did, in which case god is not omnipotent. he couldn't stop it if he tried, in other words. This fact immediately demotes god.

But it's a simple argument and nothing to get excited about.

So the problem is that. There shouldn't have to be 'evil' in the world if god can do and make happen anything that is logical or logically possible, i.e., god can't make a square triangle, etc.

The heavenly state of existence beside or with God or whatever for eternity is a state of events God would be able to create without including the creation of human life on earth and the existence of evil.

He coulda skipped that part entirely if, indeed, he could do anything logically possible. If he couldn't and still cain't, he cain't be plato's or Aquinas's god.

If he is, he's either impotent or evil.
seeds
Posts: 2143
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by seeds »

bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm He could create a perfect world. Instead, He prefers to leave us in a state of ignorance until death by creating an imperfect world for a purpose that we should not know. I call this nonsense.
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm He (she/it) has indeed created the perfect world. You are just not conscious enough to realize it.
bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:11 pm The fact that we are not conscious enough means that the world He created is not perfect.
Does the fact that a human fetus is not yet fully-conscious while it is suspended within its mother's womb, mean that her womb is not "perfect" for the purpose of bringing that fetus into existence?

Well, the same thing applies to God's "cosmic womb" (the universe) and how it is the perfect physiological structure for bringing our minds/eternal souls into existence.

bahman, I have a newsflash for you:

I know you believe otherwise, but your mind did not exist prior to your birth on this planet.

The bottom line is that even God requires an ordered process by-which to awaken her offspring into existence (as opposed to the "snap" of divine fingers).
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm In which case, the existence of evil is one of the primary ways that helps to keep God (and the truth of our ultimate destiny) hidden from us. And that's because it makes humans doubt that a loving Creator could exist and at the same time not do something about the "problem of evil."
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm So you agree that God is responsible for the existence of evil?
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:40 pm Yes!
bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:11 pm So, you have no right to complain about evil. Correct?
Rather than complaining about evil...

(though I must admit that I've done my fair share of that)

...I nevertheless prefer trying to do something about it.
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm Just out of curiosity, what are the evil aspects of this world that you think God should eliminate?
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm Well, all forms of evil. That is a necessary thing to be done by a good God.
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:40 pm Try to do some critical thinking on this issue. First of all...
  • 1. That which was "evil" for the dinosaurs (an asteroid impact) was "good" for the flourishing of mammals such as us.

    2. That which is "evil" for the gazelle (the fangs and claws of a lion) is "good" for the lion's survival.

    3. That which is "evil" for humans (devastating river floods) is "good" for replenishing nutrients in the soil.
And that list could go on and on.

So, come on now, bahman, name for us a few of the specific evils that you think God should eliminate, instead of your broad declaration that all forms of evil must be done away with.
bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:11 pm All forms of evil.
What is it about the request to name some "specific" evils of the world that you don't understand?

Just to simplify this, look at the world and pick out, say, 3 specific evils that you think God should eliminate.
_______
seeds
Posts: 2143
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by seeds »

seeds wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:27 pm ...an omnipotent (and "All-Knowing") Being, might actually have a logical reason for allowing evil to exist.
promethean75 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm Of course,...
You should have stopped at "Of course," for the rest of your post is based on "old paradigm" misconceptions of what God is.
promethean75 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm ...but the logical conflict is this: if god is, as stated, 'omnipotent' - which means able to do and/or make happen whatever is logically possible (circulatory there, btw) - he should be able to achieve the same result, the same end(s), without including the existence of 'evil' at all.
No.

The "logical" reasoning should be that any Being who is capable of creating the unfathomable order laid-out before our senses, is certainly wise enough to know what is necessary to achieve the "goal" that the universe was created for in the first place.

Like I stated to V.A., we humans are the equivalent of "amoebas" relative to God (amoebas who do not realize they are amoebas), trying to analyze the ontological status and motives of the Creator of our petri dish.
promethean75 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm The heavenly state of existence beside or with God or whatever for eternity is a state of events God would be able to create without including the creation of human life on earth and the existence of evil.
Like I suggested to bahman, even God requires an ordered process (in the form of physical bodies and brains)...

Image

...in order to awaken a new eternal mind/soul into existence.

Stop over-imagining what the word "omnipotent" means.
promethean75 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm He coulda skipped that part entirely if, indeed, he could do anything logically possible. If he couldn't and still cain't, he cain't be plato's or Aquinas's god.
Well, dang it all,...

...then I guess he can't be Plato's or Aquinas's God.

Shall we flog their bones for being a couple of knuckleheads?
promethean75 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm If he is, he's either impotent or evil.
...OR...

...he/she/it is something wholly other than what you and many other humans ("amoebas") have imagined.
_______
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

promethean75 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm "an omnipotent (and "All-Knowing") Being, might actually have a logical reason for allowing evil to exist."

Of course, but the logical conflict is this: if god is, as stated, 'omnipotent' - which means able to do and/or make happen whatever is logically possible (circulatory there, btw) - he should be able to achieve the same result, the same end(s), without including the existence of 'evil' at all.

In different words, whatever it is that god is doing, it must either include that evil, in which case god and the plan permits it on purpose, or it didn't have to include that evil, but did, in which case god is not omnipotent. he couldn't stop it if he tried, in other words. This fact immediately demotes god.

But it's a simple argument and nothing to get excited about.

So the problem is that. There shouldn't have to be 'evil' in the world if god can do and make happen anything that is logical or logically possible, i.e., god can't make a square triangle, etc.

The heavenly state of existence beside or with God or whatever for eternity is a state of events God would be able to create without including the creation of human life on earth and the existence of evil.

He coulda skipped that part entirely if, indeed, he could do anything logically possible. If he couldn't and still cain't, he cain't be plato's or Aquinas's god.

If he is, he's either impotent or evil.
Very well said.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

seeds wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:21 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm He could create a perfect world. Instead, He prefers to leave us in a state of ignorance until death by creating an imperfect world for a purpose that we should not know. I call this nonsense.
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm He (she/it) has indeed created the perfect world. You are just not conscious enough to realize it.
bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:11 pm The fact that we are not conscious enough means that the world He created is not perfect.
Does the fact that a human fetus is not yet fully-conscious while it is suspended within its mother's womb, mean that her womb is not "perfect" for the purpose of bringing that fetus into existence?

Well, the same thing applies to God's "cosmic womb" (the universe) and how it is the perfect physiological structure for bringing our minds/eternal souls into existence.

bahman, I have a newsflash for you:

I know you believe otherwise, but your mind did not exist prior to your birth on this planet.

The bottom line is that even God requires an ordered process by-which to awaken her offspring into existence (as opposed to the "snap" of divine fingers).
God does not require an ordered process in order to bring humans to existence if He is Omnipotent and Omniscient. He could in fact creates all humans in an instant in Heaven. The problem of evil is solved.
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm In which case, the existence of evil is one of the primary ways that helps to keep God (and the truth of our ultimate destiny) hidden from us. And that's because it makes humans doubt that a loving Creator could exist and at the same time not do something about the "problem of evil."
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm So you agree that God is responsible for the existence of evil?
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:40 pm Yes!
bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:11 pm So, you have no right to complain about evil. Correct?
Rather than complaining about evil...

(though I must admit that I've done my fair share of that)

...I nevertheless prefer trying to do something about it.
Why are you trying to do something about evil? That is God's will. If God's plan for us was a secret you couldn't possibly be aware of it since He is all-powerful to keep us in complete ignorance.
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm Just out of curiosity, what are the evil aspects of this world that you think God should eliminate?
bahman wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm Well, all forms of evil. That is a necessary thing to be done by a good God.
seeds wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:40 pm Try to do some critical thinking on this issue. First of all...
  • 1. That which was "evil" for the dinosaurs (an asteroid impact) was "good" for the flourishing of mammals such as us.

    2. That which is "evil" for the gazelle (the fangs and claws of a lion) is "good" for the lion's survival.

    3. That which is "evil" for humans (devastating river floods) is "good" for replenishing nutrients in the soil.
And that list could go on and on.

So, come on now, bahman, name for us a few of the specific evils that you think God should eliminate, instead of your broad declaration that all forms of evil must be done away with.
bahman wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:11 pm All forms of evil.
What is it about the request to name some "specific" evils of the world that you don't understand?

Just to simplify this, look at the world and pick out, say, 3 specific evils that you think God should eliminate.
_______
Well, let me pick one. Do you think that a gazelle that is eaten alive by lions is having a good time? Do animals also subjected to God's plan and go to Heaven upon death, etc.?
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am
bahman wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm The discussion can be divided into three parts:
1) Origin of Evil,
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment, and
3) Natural Evil.

1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment: Why did God punish a naive person who was deceived?
3) Natural Evil: Why do we suffer for the sins of others (Adam and Eve)?
This discussion will get entangled in a mess when you have not specifically define what is evil.

Regardless of whatever the origin of evil, we need a Definition of Evil, which is;
What is good is not-evil.
What is evil is any act or thoughts of agency that is a net-negative to the well-being of the individual and to humanity towards the preservation of the human species.


Generally the Problem of Evil is,
  • 1. God is defined as an agent that is omni-whatever [in favor of God] and that includes omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omni-compassion, omni-empathic.
    If God exists as real with above qualities, then the omnipotent God will not allow or will prevent evil to emerge in reality.

    2. The reality is, the acts of evil [by the supposed God and humans] occur and had happened and will happen in the future.

    3. Therefore God cannot exists as real, otherwise 2 would not be a reality
This is precisely the problem of evil as commonly posited by non-theists.

There is no need to discuss other matters, e.g. point 1, 2 and 3 above which should be raised as separate topics.
Evil is any act that God prohibited.
trokanmariel
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:35 am

Re: The problem of evil

Post by trokanmariel »

The evil:

After metaphysics, has left-wing politics access to photography (its human anatomy structure being the geography of time's projection from The Anatomyless Anatomy's outer space activation, of body glamour's have metaphysics be a name-caller to nationalism), there is the Robin Williams-Thomas Cullen obstacle, of God's sociology gang waiting to locate the right-wing nightclub as secret left-wing's sex party metaphor bridge to said nightclub.

To combat this, there is the Right-wing Master's non-ironic as safe metaphor identity of the ultimate inverse story: namely, that the very art of name-calling is a gravitation to body glamour art design (Paul Walker's identity), in which the physicals of the name-calling world are words as body glamour physicals
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: The problem of evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

seeds wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:27 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am Generally the Problem of Evil is,
  • 1. God is defined as an agent that is omni-whatever [in favor of God] and that includes omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omni-compassion, omni-empathic.
    If God exists as real with above qualities, then the omnipotent God will not allow or will prevent evil to emerge in reality.
...OR...

...an omnipotent (and "All-Knowing") Being, might actually have a logical reason for allowing evil to exist.
Amoeba?? talking about yourself who is so ignorant with the limitation of logic.

Logical reason??
Note I argued Logic is merely concluding half-truths.
viewtopic.php?p=571101#p571101

I am certain Hitler and many "intelligent" dictators and those who committed genocides and other evil acts were acting very logically BUT NOT empathically nor compassionately.
Ted Bundy who was a serial killer who killed many was a highly intelligent person who relied on logic to lure the women he killed.

Where is the omnibenevolence, omni-empathy and omi-compassion in your GOD. In the weakness of these qualities your God is omni-psychopathic.

The point is God has agency and thus a God with omnipotence should deal with the Problem of Evil [eternal bound] as conditioned by omnibenevolence, omni-empathy and omi-compassion to ensure his created humans do not suffer since humans first emerged.

You are the amoeba who is ignorant of why you are desperately clinging to a God for consonance sake to soothe the inherent cognitive dissonances driven by an existential crisis.
In clinging to such an illusory God you are indirectly complicit to all the evil acts committed by theists, especially from evil prone Islamists.
There are alternative secular strategies to deal with the inherent cognitive dissonance [that generate terrible pains "& sufferings] and this will avoid theistic-related evil.

The secular will have their secular evil acts and these will be dealt with via morality-proper.
What is Morality?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29737
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 9956
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: The problem of evil

Post by attofishpi »

promethean75 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm "an omnipotent (and "All-Knowing") Being, might actually have a logical reason for allowing evil to exist."

Of course, but the logical conflict is this: if god is, as stated, 'omnipotent' - which means able to do and/or make happen whatever is logically possible (circulatory there, btw) - he should be able to achieve the same result, the same end(s), without including the existence of 'evil' at all.
Y?

IF an omnipotent God allows causality to flow, allows wo/men to be evil, or does it not?

U will insist that it intervenes on wo/mans stupidity?

promethean75 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pmIn different words, whatever it is that god is doing, it must either include that evil, in which case god and the plan permits it on purpose, or it didn't have to include that evil, but did, in which case god is not omnipotent.
..or God is not ALL good..or?


promethean75 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm he couldn't stop it if he tried, in other words. This fact immediately demotes god.

But it's a simple argument and nothing to get excited about.

So the problem is that. There shouldn't have to be 'evil' in the world if god can do and make happen anything that is logical or logically possible, i.e., god can't make a square triangle, etc.

The heavenly state of existence beside or with God or whatever for eternity is a state of events God would be able to create without including the creation of human life on earth and the existence of evil.

He coulda skipped that part entirely if, indeed, he could do anything logically possible. If he couldn't and still cain't, he cain't be plato's or Aquinas's god.

If he is, he's either impotent or evil.
Or? 'He' ...

I'll let u in on a little story extremely shortened. The God system one night broke my arm. I was in severe pain later and since I knew this God fuckwit existed I asked for some pain relief - IT stated "would u like me to erase that." ...and the pain disappeared for about 10 mins.

My point is - OK. We see a lot of evil shit humans do to each other, and natural events floods fires etc.. Ultimately, this 'God' entity takes the soul from the pain beyond a threshold - does that make God evil? (that it allowed us to perceive the suffering)

IT appears as USUAL, as an atheist - you expect that IF "God" exists, that you should already be in some form of "heaven"!!
jayjacobus
Posts: 1273
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:45 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by jayjacobus »

attofishpi wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 5:05 am
promethean75 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm "an omnipotent (and "All-Knowing") Being, might actually have a logical reason for allowing evil to exist."

Of course, but the logical conflict is this: if god is, as stated, 'omnipotent' - which means able to do and/or make happen whatever is logically possible (circulatory there, btw) - he should be able to achieve the same result, the same end(s), without including the existence of 'evil' at all.
Y?

IF an omnipotent God allows causality to flow, allows wo/men to be evil, or does it not?

U will insist that it intervenes on wo/mans stupidity?

promethean75 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pmIn different words, whatever it is that god is doing, it must either include that evil, in which case god and the plan permits it on purpose, or it didn't have to include that evil, but did, in which case god is not omnipotent.
..or God is not ALL good..or?


promethean75 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm he couldn't stop it if he tried, in other words. This fact immediately demotes god.

But it's a simple argument and nothing to get excited about.

So the problem is that. There shouldn't have to be 'evil' in the world if god can do and make happen anything that is logical or logically possible, i.e., god can't make a square triangle, etc.

The heavenly state of existence beside or with God or whatever for eternity is a state of events God would be able to create without including the creation of human life on earth and the existence of evil.

He coulda skipped that part entirely if, indeed, he could do anything logically possible. If he couldn't and still cain't, he cain't be plato's or Aquinas's god.

If he is, he's either impotent or evil.
Or? 'He' ...

I'll let u in on a little story extremely shortened. The God system one night broke my arm. I was in severe pain later and since I knew this God fuckwit existed I asked for some pain relief - IT stated "would u like me to erase that." ...and the pain disappeared for about 10 mins.

My point is - OK. We see a lot of evil shit humans do to each other, and natural events floods fires etc.. Ultimately, this 'God' entity takes the soul from the pain beyond a threshold - does that make God evil? (that it allowed us to perceive the suffering)

IT appears as USUAL, as an atheist - you expect that IF "God" exists, that you should already be in some form of "heaven"!!
There is no evidence that heaven exists.

Whatever you say about "heaven" is conjecture.
Skepdick
Posts: 14362
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: The problem of evil

Post by Skepdick »

jayjacobus wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 12:11 pm There is no evidence that heaven exists.

Whatever you say about "heaven" is conjecture.
Does the future exist? Yes it does.

Could the future turn out really terrible for humans? Yes it can. That's hell.
Could the future turn out really great for humans? Yes it can. That's heaven.

Our choices determine which future comes about.
Choices which manifest a terrible futures are called "evil"

The Bible summed up in one post.
jayjacobus
Posts: 1273
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:45 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by jayjacobus »

Skepdick wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 12:39 pm
jayjacobus wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 12:11 pm There is no evidence that heaven exists.

Whatever you say about "heaven" is conjecture.
Does the future exist? Yes it does.

Could the future turn out really terrible for humans? Yes it can. That's hell.
Could the future turn out really great for humans? Yes it can. That's heaven.

Our choices determine which future comes about.
Choices which manifest a terrible futures are called "evil"

The Bible summed up in one post.
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven"

Heaven is not on Earth according to the Bible.
Skepdick
Posts: 14362
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: The problem of evil

Post by Skepdick »

jayjacobus wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 1:53 pm “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven"

Heaven is not on Earth according to the Bible.
Fine. In a few generations we'll be off this planet.

If we don't get off we already know what awaits us - the same thing which awaited the dinosaurs. Brimstone raining from the skies. If you ask me - it's very close to hell.

You need to leanr to understand, not just read those metaphors.
promethean75
Posts: 4931
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by promethean75 »

"Y? IF an omnipotent God allows causality to flow, allows wo/men to be evil, or does it not? U will insist that it intervenes on wo/mans stupidity?"

You're not axin the right questions. I'm on some whole other level shit bro.

Again the question we are axin is something like: does the fine tuning of the world and the laws of physics, chemistry, biology, etc., need to necessarily include the possiblity that, say, everyday on the planet at least twenty six thousand children will die (probably painfully) from preventable causes.

We want to know why the world has to be like that, and why an all powerful 'god' would design it to be that way.

Was there another way it could have been done, still allowing 'god' to achieve the same objective?

At the bottom of this problem is this conflict. If the world had to be the way it is for 'god' to achieve objective x, 'god' is not the designer of the natural laws. In order to achieve x, 'god' is forced to proceed a certain way... therefore he is not free to do anything (not omnipotent) and is subject to the natural laws.

If the world didn't have to be this way for 'god' to achieve objective x, but is anyway, we got a slacker or an asshole on our hands.
Post Reply